From Front Page - Schools Approve $1.2 Million Reduction

[Will Brown]

Dee Martinez:

You started out saying that you and Mr. Call paid about 62 cents of every dollar spent by the Lakewood Schools, a ridiculous assertion if you take the time to think about it. I suspect you were trying to say that the Lakewood taxpayers pay about 62 cents. You went on to say that the balance came from Columbus and Washington, apparently not realizing that the money we get from those governments comes from us, the taxpayers. In fact, I have frequently read that Ohio is one of the states whose taxpayers pay more to the federal government than we get back.

You apparently mistook that for a joke! I don't think it is at all funny that people think the money they get from the federal and state governments is free money and costs us nothing. It costs us more than the taxes we pay directly to local government.

Now you return, offended, and make up a figure about how much of my federal tax payment is returned to the local schools. You don't know how much I pay; you probably don't even know how much you pay, so how do you come up with a figure? But I don't think you are in any position to demand ideas, or even handle ideas, when you apparently have such difficulty with the facts.

I'm not the one who suggested the 10 million dollar reduction, but I will freely admit that I think the Lakewood Schools, while among the better public school systems, are in an industry that is lagging other industries when it comes to switching to newer and more efficient ways of doing business. Since I think education is important, I would rather see them keep the 10 million dollars, and give us more pertinently and comprehensively educated young people.

Today I dealt with a microsoft support technician. Now I know they outsource this function to somewhere in Asia (I've read that and the names of the technicians are a solid clue). So this person, to whom English is probably a second language, solved a complicated (to me) problem with my computer with no problems.

Then I called my cell phone company to have them make an adjustment in my overseas plan. The substandard English and gum snapping made it clear to me that I was dealing with an American. After I explained who I was and what I wanted done, and gave her my phone number the third time (I find it difficult to believe that it was not on the screen she was looking at, since she knew other details of my plan), she said she would have to put me on hold for a few minutes while she made the adjustment. I said that was fine, but I knew my call was headed for the circular file. 20 minutes later (seven or eight times through their litany of recorded motivational sales pitches, the phone clicked, and I was back where I started, waiting for a technician to start at step one. Fortunately the second one was able to make the changes in about two minutes, so I guess one out of two is pretty good for a ballplayer, but its not good enough for simple tech support. Its been my experience that even the level 1 technicians usually have a college degree, but the one who "lost" me was not educated well enough to do very simple work. If that is what our schools are turning out, we had better do a lot to improve our system of education, rather than defending the status quo.

[Dee Martinez]

#1 It is pointless to try to draw analogies between private business and public schools. Microsoft and your cell phone co dont have to provide service for free to everyone. We have had free public education for 140 years in this great country and it is one of the things that has made us great

#2 I dont care if you pay a milllion dollars a year in federal tax. The federal education budget is a miniscule part of the overall budget and Lakewood gets a tiny tiny portion of that. A trillion dollar budget and Lakewood gets a couple of million. I would be surprised if even a penny of what you pay makes it back to Lakewood schools

#3 I said you were on more firmer footing about state aid and this is true. the big question is whether we should pay it all to Columbus and then take our slice of the big pie or do what were doing now. Right now the state takes money from wealthy taxpayers in wealthy districts and sends it to poorer ones. Lakewood is right in the middle but is trending toward poorer. It is very possible that Lakewood is getting more back from Ohio than it is sending but since I dont have statistics as to how much state income tax is collected from Lakewood, I cant make that claim (I dont think that # is available. If you can find it Id love to see it)

[Bill Call]

As to Lakewood Schools: They can and should cut at least $10 million from its current operating budget.

10 million? is this a typo? I'd like to see the details as well. I would assume at least 80% of expenses are salaries. That doesn't leave much else to cut. Where's the 10 mill coming from, if not from salaries.

A 10% reduction is salaries is both reasonable and responsible. Instead the school board is a budgeting a 20% increase in salaries over the next three years.

The argument that the schools have not asked for an operating levy for years is irrelevant. The district is losing students (customers) at an accelerating rate. Arguing that the schools are well run because they haven't asked for an operating levy is like a restaurant manager arguing he is doing a good job because even though he has lost 50% of his customers his food cost have only gone up 40%.

[Dee Martinez]

I must repeat that trying draw an analogy between schools and private business is ridiculous.
No restaurant manager is forced to serve EVERY customer a CUSTOM menu, mandated by the federal government nor would he be required to maintain a staff of 1 waitress to every 5 customers all the while requiring the CUSTOMERS being able to VOTE on any price increases.

So can we PLEASE get off these analogies?
I guess my calculator isnt working right because Im showing $57million in salaries and benefits up $66 million in 2012. That doesnt look like 20% to me.

Beyond that, a 10% decrease in salaries is a pipe dream. Teachers do have some leverage.
Do you really want the signs to say "Welcome to Lakewood, Cheapest Teachers Around"

[Gary Rice]

We've had this tired-out discussion in one recycled form or another on this 'Deck several times now in the past few years, and often, with the same players.

There are those who, whether by virtue of their personal philosophy or coming from some political or polemic bias, seem to think that public schools should be castigated at every turn.

These people often extol the virture of private schools, often omitting the exclusive character of those institutions in being able to refuse those whom they feel might not fit whatever utopian mold that they are attempting to develop.

These people need to get real.

The success of the public schools can be directly correlated to the success of society as a whole. Public schools privide a primary means of social integration and democratic interaction.

As far as the money goes...

Educators and others involved with those schools have the right of collective bargaining to assure that they can negotiate for a liveable and competitive wage/benefit package. This package also can invite comparison with other communities, such that our communities become competitive in either attracting or repelling new prospective employees for the schools.

Attracting and retaining the best teachers means having something to attract and retain them with.

Were we as a community even able to reduce salaries by 10% (and we cannot, without the spectre of an unfair labor practice action being filed) we would quickly discover that we would lose our better teachers to surrounding communities, out of their own economic necessity.

More and more, teachers are having to return to out-of-pocket continuing education coursework. More and more, unfunded mandates are being placed upon our public schools. More and more, are educational professionals being subjected to unreasonable harassment by special interests hoping to get a piece of the public educational pie. More and more, do many privatizing school movements seem to seek out more and even more public dollars, in the furtherance of their interests.

The public schools are the last best hope of this country. They need to be vigorously supported and defended by every responsible American citizen.

That's my position.

[Dee Martinez]

Thanks for the post Mr Rice.
What people sometimes dont understand is that local school districts are for the most part "pass throughs" The state or government mandates some level of service and the local districts have to write the checks, sometimes with outside help sometimes without.
The local district cant just lop off 40 teachers or cut their pay by 10%. It really isnt in any way like running a cell phone company or a restaurant.
The fact that Lakewood has gone so long without asking for more money is evidence that mgmt is doing a good job in managing expenses.
But if you think your going to get anything CHEAPER now than you got it 10 yrs ago, your dreaming.

[Dee Martinez]

And another thing (I wish theyd bring that edit function back)
Why are we supposed to run the SCHOOLS like Burger Kings when the ARMY can spend $700 for hammers and give out no-bid contracts?

[Charlie Page]

As with anything, you get what you pay for (except for $700 hammers). Asking or forcing teachers and administrators to take a 10% cut in pay takes some stones. If this happened it would force some high performers to seek employment elsewhere. Is this what we want? Not me. Would you voluntarily take a 10% cut?

I think the schools are smart enough to not spend their reserves on “nice to havesâ€￾ simply because they have the funds. Managing money smartly is why they haven’t needed an operating levy in many years yet continued to provide good quality education. However, the time is nearing, if not here already, where costs to maintain the current level of quality are eating into reserves. So where do we go from here? Cut costs and some level of quality or raise revenues via an operating levy to maintain the quality the schools have worked hard to build.

I look forward to the release of the staffing audit performed by the Auditor of State of Ohio. I’m hoping the AoS includes some average salary and staffing comparisons with other districts similar in size. Then we’ll see where we stand. Even when looking at numbers it’s difficult to subjectively judge quality.

[Dee Martinez]

If you wanted to look at it rationally, you would see this.
Lakewood had a huge student population 40 years ago. That number has declined steadily. The large number of teachers needed back then reached retirement age in the past 5-10 years.
Obviously, they were the most expensive ones.
As the retired or were bought out, they were either not replaced at all or replaced by younger teachers at the entry level of the scale.

This has allowed Lakewood to keep salary levels in line and avoid having to ask for more levies.
But Mr Page you are right. Things are stabilizing. The teachers hired 10 years ago to replace the teachers hired in the 60s and 70s now have 10 years in themselves.
So Lakewood has made the demographic and generational correction and yes the time is coming when we have to start joining every other district in Ohio in a regular cycle of operating levies.

There is more to this than clutching to every dollar and saying, "why cant we run the schools like a Taco Bell?"

[Dee Martinez]

If you wanted to look at it rationally, you would see this.
Lakewood had a huge student population 40 years ago. That number has declined steadily. The large number of teachers needed back then reached retirement age in the past 5-10 years.
Obviously, they were the most expensive ones.
As the retired or were bought out, they were either not replaced at all or replaced by younger teachers at the entry level of the scale.

This has allowed Lakewood to keep salary levels in line and avoid having to ask for more levies.
But Mr Page you are right. Things are stabilizing. The teachers hired 10 years ago to replace the teachers hired in the 60s and 70s now have 10 years in themselves.
So Lakewood has made the demographic and generational correction and yes the time is coming when we have to start joining every other district in Ohio in a regular cycle of operating levies.

There is more to this than clutching to every dollar and saying, "why cant we run the schools like a Taco Bell?"

[Bill Call]

There is no relationship between teacher salaries and teacher performance. There is no relationship between per pupil expenditures and student achievement.

Salary and benefit cuts have no affect on the level of service provided. A gym teacher that make $85,000 per year rather than $95,000 per year is still teaching gym. And if the gym teacher wants to quit rather than make $85,000 per year then someone else would be happy to do the job.

Companies everywhere are asking for cuts in wages and benefits:

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2009 ... _of_t.html

It is time for school employees to take the cuts necessary to balance the budget without a tax increase.

[Gary Rice]

All opinions are to be respected here.

But...

You can bet that any Physical Education instructor making anywhere near that kind of astronomical salary would either have many years in the system, and/or many years of continuing higher education. (perhaps even a doctorate in their field)

There always will be entry level teachers "happy to do the job" for less. That's why there are laws in place protecting those who have invested the education and years of experience in order to attain higher salaries.

Reality check- Collective bargaining means exactly that.

You want to take something away? Be prepared to negotiate, and when it comes to money, I would not hold my breath, if I were you. Even if Lakewood did negotiate a salary reduction, what exactly would that mean? Only that they would be much less competitive with surrounding districts, and that could easily have an effect on home values and other quality-of-life issues.

Better schools are one of the best drawing cards that a community has.

Bill,

I would agree with you up to a point, that good teaching does not always have to be costly, but as to your other point, I have seen a strong correlation between per-pupil expenditures and successful outcomes in many, but not all districts.

Poverty and parental support questions would seem to remain as two other great factors having to do with student successes, regardless of the monies available for school districts.

There are certainly many other factors weighing in the balance here.

I would still assert that highly experienced and educated, and yes, well-compensated teachers certainly go a long way towards helping better schools to get better.

[Dee Martinez]

Mr Call.
Perhaps Ive been wrong. Maybe I should join you and the others in making the analogy between private busienss and schools.

Lets try this.
In Cleveland you can get a pretty decent hotel room for $100 a night or a breakfast for $7.
What does $100 or $7 buy you in New York?
There is such a thing called the "going rate" and that differs based on many factors.
Forget about cutting current teachers salaries. That isnt going to happen, no matter how much you dream of it. Teachers CAN strike and parents wont put up with it to save you a few bucks. The parents will come after YOU before the teachers.

Be realistic.
You can cut personnel costs either by reducing the number of bodies or starting salaries.

You can only reduce the bodies so much. The state requires staffing levels.
That leaves cutting starting salaries. And now were down to the "going rate"
#1 in her class can work in Beachwood for $35000 or Lakewood for the $28000 you propose. Do you think well get #1? Or will we get the last one in the draft?
As they always say, every med school class has someone who ranks last. Is that who you want treating you?
Is that who you want teaching Lakewood kids?

[Will Brown]

Virtually everyone who runs for President or the congressm bemoans the sad state of public education in this country, and that they say that and get elected promising to do something about it would seem to indicate that the American people also recognize that our schools are not doing well. Some posters seem to feel that everything with the schools is good, except for the attention given to student achievement scores, which are apparently, to them, irrelevant. Many of these people appear to have a personal interest in enriching themselves that is greater than their interest in the success of our children.

Where there is the most disagreement, I think, is on what we should do about the current situation. Many argue that more money will solve all the problems; others argue for systemic changes and efficiencies. I personally don't think that more money, which seems to many to mean raising salaries, will make much of a change. Those arguing for higher salaries apparently assume (if not know) that teachers are not working very hard, but will work harder for more money. I think our current teachers are doing the best they can, and giving them more money won't enable them to do better. At best, higher salaries would draw in more talented people at the entry level, but that assumes there will be openings for them (as if older teachers will leave rather than taking a higher salary), and the effect of the higher talent would not be seen for quite a few years.

It may not be unreasonable in these trying economic times to ask school employees to take a pay cut, but the Board seems to have been able to control costs without doing that, and it would certainly take some hard nosed negotiation to get it done. Given less money available for wages, unions almost invariably require that lower seniority employees be let go, rather than accept an across the board cut.

I don't think the argument that talented employees will leave rather than take a salary cut is unrealistic, at least at this time, because I think their prospects of finding a better job would not be good. There is no shortage of teaching candidates at this time. Assume you are a teacher with advanced degrees and 20 years of experience. Is Rocky River going to get rid of one of its own employees to take you? If they do have an opening, are they going to fill it with you, or with a far less costly new teacher with a newer education; what value will they place on your experience when they know that, while some people with 20 years in have grown, others with 20 years of experience have just kept one step ahead of whoever can fire them?

While the Lakewood schools are, in my opinion, better than most, they are not perfect, and there is certainly room for improvement, and I think the people who offer criticisms and suggestions are doing so in hopes of achieving some improvement. Those who are unflaggingly defensive about the status quo do not seem to see any need for improvement.

[Will Brown]

In my fourth paragraph above, I meant to say the idea that talented employees will leave rather than take a pay cut is not, currently, realistic.