Plan 920 From Outer Space - Sticklands Schools Funding Plan

[Bill Call]

... if you find out if the numbers are correct please let us know.

If you think Strickland's plan is all dog and pony though, which I sure can't say yet, what do you think about his plan to get rid of "bad teachers"? Or some of his other ideas?

Here is an article from the PD that confirms the numbers:

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/in ... /post.html

Lakewood will actually see a small decrease in State aid.

Strongsville, Avon and Avon Lake will see a 16% increase in State aid.

Unless the governor is unaware of the financial affects of his "reform" package it is clear to me that this is a political program not a school program.

Republican districts that might be tempted to vote for Democrats are given huge increases in State aid. Democratic districts that will vote Democratic no matter what will see their State funding decline.

In all of the discussions about school funding reform have you ever heard anyone say: "The real problem here is that wealthy, property rich districts don't get enough money from the State". Well that's what Stricklands plan tells us.

Don't pay any attention to what the man tells us. It's the dollars that talk.

Everyone talks about getting rid of bad teachers and no one will do anything about it.

Personally, I think there is some political pressure to get rid of very good teachers who don't fit the mold. The mold is you must be a liberal democratic, graduate of school of education who thinks your mission in life is not to teach but to change the world.

If you want real education reform:

1. Close down the education departments at universites and replace them with apprenticeship programs.
2. Don't pay extra for MBA's, PHD's or (after 5 years) time in service.
3. Hire people who have some experience outside the classroom in the subjects they teach.
4. Longer school days and longer school years only make sense if you change the way students are taught. Insanity is doing the same thing in the same way over and over again and expecting a different result.
5. More classroom autonomy for teachers. It's results that matter.
6. More physical education not less.
7. More art not less.
8. More writing in English and more computing in Math.
9. More hands on learning in Science labs.
10. Give a $1 billion dollar prize to someone who can figure out why a bunch of third graders eager to learn are turned into a bunch of high schoolers who hate school.

[Gary Rice]

Well, I, for one, might be willing to take a limited look at points 3, 5, and 7...

Never let it be said that I do not sincerely attempt to find some common ground with Bill...

[Will Brown]

I must have dozed off, but I can't recall that people who advocate year round schooling advocate the the kids should spend the same amount of time, per year, in class. My advocacy is premised on the understanding that more time would be spent in class, and more would be learned. If that isn't the case, then extending the school year doesn't seem like a very good idea, as you would almost certainly have to retard the learning process to stretch the material out over a longer period, while at the same time paying a little more to keep the buildings open and clean. Its like a factory owner adding overtime for his workers, but demanding that they don't do any additional work!

I also get a bit tired of hearing the teachers complain about the parents. Every one knows that few parents are ideal, and the person who doesn't know that before going into teaching is naive beyond belief. Yet virtually all teachers haul out that (or society, or peer pressure, or the weather, or a mis-alignment of the stars and planets) as an excuse when their students don't learn. I almost think that a lot of the class time in the colleges of education is devoted to mastering whining and finger pointing, because these excuses are constantly cited. Is it too much to expect that a professional would have some capacity to overcome, in some degree, the shortcomings of some parents? What good comes of this constant whining? Does anyone really expect that we will banish bad parenting?

As to continuing professional education, my experience is that all professions have had such requirements for years, and now finally education is joining in. I don't believe that the law mandates that such education be at the cost of the employee, only that it be completed by the employee. If it is being done at the cost of the employee, that would be because of a cheap school board, and a union that apparently has its attention on something other than the welfare of its members. I would hope that the school board would recognize the value of such added training, and pay to have it done.

I don't understand Mr. Call's diatribe about a Democratic governor skewing state aid to the advantage of traditionally Republican communities! That doesn't make sense. I think part of the apparent inequity might be that small school districts don't enjoy some of the economies of scale that larger districts can.

As far as supporting schools, a dollar is a dollar, whether it comes from a property tax, an income tax, a lottery ticket, or, today, from a printing press. I think the court's objection was to school financing based solely on property taxes, which meant that some systems with lower property tax bases were underfunding their schools ; others ( Perry comes to mind) were rolling in dough. The constitutional requirement is that we provide an education. It is complicated (unless you are a Democrat) by the fact that communities have varying standards of living, so the same amount of money in a high cost community provides less of an education than in a low cost community, but dollars spent per student is certainly the simplest way to measure what in fact is a much more complicated problem.

As to autonomy in the classroom, I think that should be limited to teaching techniques. If we don't allow that, there can be no adjustment for the strengths and weaknesses of the students, and the teacher could be replaced with a tape recording. However, the teacher should not have authority to minimize or skip over some materials, because the teacher who will have those students in the next class should be able to trust that all the students will have mastered certain material, so he can move onto the next subject without having to take the time to teach a few of the students what they should already know. That is, to me, one of the best arguments for using standardized tests, where someone other than the teacher evaluates what the students have learned. Assume, for example, that a math teacher isn't really enthusiastic about logarithms, so he doesn't spend a lot of time on them. On a test that teacher created, I would expect logarithms to be slighted, and the students' weakness in that area to go unnnoticed. On a standardized test, the weakness would be found, and remediation accomplished.

[Gary Rice]

Firstly, I'm absolutely delighted that we have people like Will and Bill in our communities who obviously care temendously about our schools and by extension, our students.

The fact that there may be philosophical differences between us posters is, to me, much less important than having people at the table who care deeply about the topic of education.

Having acceeded the above, however, at the risk of redundancy, I would have to reiterate my personal and professional opinion that parenting and the factors involving the home are perhaps the single greatest aspects influencing successful educational outcomes.

No whining there at all.

Look at it this way, if you would-

If a person who has been exposed to carcinogens for 30 years, and is then admitted to a hospital with stage 4 cancer, then no matter how professional the staff, the healing work becomes a more difficult proposition for them.

Just remember though, that whether with medicine or education- among true professionals, every effort is made to meet the challenges presented to them with successful outcomes.

[Justine Cooper]

Bill,
You have just offended a lot of Republicans I have met in the Education field, but why not blame all the teacher for all the ills of society and for every education failure in this country? Which, by the way, we are still better off than when you were in public education. We have made many strides and there are more to be made, but being part of the change means we have choices:

We can go back to school to become a teacher and make some changes.
We can run for/join the school board.
We can be involved with the PTA.
We can show up at school board meetings and voice opinions.
We can become a politician and make our own changes.

It is ironic that some feel that teachers "whine" about parents while those same people whine incessantly about teachers. When was the last time you were in a classroom observing around here? How about a University that you say is teaching all those insults thrown out? Once again the issue we read here is all about insulting all teachers and not about real issues in in this country.

If it is SO easy to get that education and SUCH great pay, why aren't any of the critics going back to school to do it?

[Sean Wheeler]

- I have to pay for the state mandated continuing education out of pocket. I don't mind. I enjoy learning and believe in the notion that teachers should continue to be students. But don't think for a second that I'm not paying for those credit hours.

- I think that the buck DOES stop with me, the classroom teacher. I cannot control parents, living conditions, or societal ills. I CAN and DO control what is in my power while in the classroom. I have no problem with accepting responsibility as the classroom teacher. But then don't turn around and tell me that my assessment practices cannot be trusted and that I should be spied on by the janitor as someone posted in a previous post. It seems that some people on this forum want it both ways. They want teachers to shut up and teach (I couldn't agree more) but then they become highly skeptical of the results. Or they believe that nothing of value is happening in the classroom, while ignoring the excellent results that we achieve on state and federally mandated assessments. I think that great public education requires public scrutiny, and I welcome that scrutiny. As a professional educator, I merely ask that the public represented in this forum come to the table with an accurate and non-contradictory assessment of the status of our local schools.

As for the funding issue, again, the current property-tax based system is not only flawed, it has been deemed unconstitutional. Until we quit relying on property tax funds, the inequity will continue. I taught at Brookside HS in Sheffield and was laid off because they couldn't pass a levy. It's hard to come home without a job because the executive branch of our state government will not act upon a clear finding from the judicial branch. Teachers are loosing jobs all over the place, and too often these teachers are the ones most eager to bring fresh ideas to our education system.

It is unfortunate that education has become a political football, run by vote -seekers and critiqued by monday morning quarterbacks acting as pundits. It is too bad that our unions often place a higher value on being safe than being effective. It is a shame that teachers are consistently held up as ineffective while the results of their work go unexamined and unnoticed. And yet, it is still a high privilege and a fulfilling endeavor to stand in front of a group of students and say "Let's begin". Not to save the world, or to appease the naysayers, but because I want to live in this city and feel like I have made a contribution. It's not altruistic, it's almost egotistic. I teach because it matters and I can be a part of something worthwhile.

Please feel free to contact me privately about my current lesson plans, pedagogical practices, and assessment measures. I would also be more than happy to spend an hour at a local coffee shop to discuss any of this further. After all, I work for you.

[Danielle Masters]

While I was in my daughter's class volunteering today I spoke briefly with her teacher about the prospect of adding 20 days to the school year. Her feeling was that kids do a lot of important stuff during the summer like going to museums, going to the zoo, taking family trips, playing with friends, etc. Her feeling was that there is a lot of value in just letting kids have time with family and friends. I don't know if any of that really matters. And I know some people will say not all families do educational stuff with their kids during the summers but I know many that do. I am wondering if there could be a sort of extended school year for kids that really need the extra time. I understand the point of all this is making sure kids have the opportunity to succeed and maybe focusing on the kids that really need the help would be more effective. And as a side note every week when I go into my kids' school I am amazed at the work the teachers do. They certainly put in a lot of time and effort and really seem to enjoy their jobs. I trust these teachers with my children and I trust that the number one reason they teach is because they want to teach children. I appreciate all the work they put into their jobs not just during the school day but also the work they do at home getting lessons ready and grading papers and whatnot.

[Bill Call]

I don't understand Mr. Call's diatribe about a Democratic governor skewing state aid to the advantage of traditionally Republican communities!

Anyone interested in the original Plan Nine From Outer Space should take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space

My diatribe is based on this:

When Ohio's Supreme Court (incorrectly) ruled Ohio's school funding unconstitutional they found in part that:

It is unfair to rely on local property taxes to fund education

and

It is unfair that property rich districts have more to spend than other districts.

Strickland's plan:

Increases local property taxes and

Cuts or freezes the amount available to property tax poor districts and increases the payments to property rich districts.

This article in the PD points out some of the highlights. One item of interest is that while property taxes go up for homeowners they go down for shoppling mall owners.

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/st ... xml&coll=2

[Justine Cooper]

This thread is the umpteenth thread that has turned its focus on teachers and the same people criticizing and blaming teachers in general and talking about their pay. I think as taxpayers we all agree that our taxes should not continually go up to pay for the schools. But there are so many people that talk about the good in Lakewood schools and teachers they quit reading here because why bother to keep defending the good when the "black and white" statements keep coming back with no real support?

Schools are far better today than they were in the past. I am still waiting to hear one shred of evidence that they and teachers are worse. My first and second grade children have learned FAR more than we did at their age.

The full day Kindergarten that Lakewood progressively implemented is now in the plans for the entire state because of extensive research that shows it helps. So some want longer schools years and fight full day Kindergarten which seems like a contradiction. In Kindergarten we took naps and painted and tied our shoes. They are learning to read and socialize and get started on education.

Socialization has been the primary goal of teaching since the the 19th century so it is not new.

First, the schools started in the beginning of this country with a goal for patriotism. It was a country filled with immigrants and this country's goal was to unify, form the Pledge of Allegiance, have drills and marches and teach obedience and order. It was Horace Mann who wanted the socialization in schools to reduce crime. Socialization can also mean obedience to government laws. The Pledge of Allegiance was changed from "to our flag" to "to the flag" to make sure all immigrants were saluting just the one flag in America. This was the beginning of schools in this country with teachers who weren't educated.

The goals changed from political to social goals with Horace Mann, who realized even back then, that crime could not be stopped by schools. Even back then they knew that. Schools are schools, they are not magicians. The reason religion was taken out was because there were too many non-Protestants who didn't want Protestant "morals" and values taught. The Catholic church fought that tooth and nail and started their own schools. Religion was eventually taken out because of the fact there there are several religions in this country and freedom of religion.

Character education has been of part of education since the beginning. It was reinforced with NCLB even though the goals of education turned economic in this country. President Bush said in 1990 "Parents, businesses, and community organizations will work together to ensure that schools are a safe haven for all children".

He forgot parents and taxpayers. Businesses because it was all about money. Schooling was never all about the economic growth and should never be about only that. It must include the socialization that helps children succeed in a world in other areas than their jobs.

Let's face it, our top economic businessmen in this country have turned out to be crooks who have bankrupted our nation. They took multi-million dollar salaries while bankrupting their own company and thus made it the responsibility of the tax payer to bail them out, after having several homes, lifestyles we couldn't imagine, high-priced hookers on their payroll, and still funding superbowls, etc.

The National Education Summit on High Schools was attended by politicians and businessmen, not parents and taxpayers and teachers. They were determining what is best for our schools.

So saying teachers should have more autonomy and then saying they aren't good enough because they have to follow all the "reform" and "trends" that the government dictates isn't reality. Just as blaming the teachers for all the problems in the schooling without going to the "Oz" controlling things behind the curtain is ridiculously unfair. I feel sad for those who think in black and white.

Not just in Lakewood, but in the Cleveland schools, as in probably every school, there are amazing teachers. If the critics saw these teachers working together for the betterment of the children, they would never make black and white statements. Never. And on reflection and after Sean's post, it has nothing to do with altruistic intentions. A teacher can go into teaching for any reason and still be a great teacher. Do you have to go into accounting or computers for altruistic reasons?

In fact, while teachers' salaries have been dissected here, in a world where athletes make multi-millions, naked singers make multi-millions, top executives from failing banks make multi-millions, the "median" for Lakewood teachers is dissected by people who might not want to put their education and experience and salary up for the public to dissect. If the median is $60,000 for teachers with experience and education, can we really argue that is too high in a country where Cameron Diaz was paid millions for the voice of Shrek? And then say that teachers shouldn't be compensated for more education?

The director of the choir in Lakewood has a Phd. She has led all her choirs to winning top competitions. She has formed and created students to go on with experience that is priceless. And she shouldn't be compensated for a Phd? In a price range that is small compared to other fields. That is tragic thinking. I am sorry I ever went to the subject of "bad teachers" because they are too few. I was just curious about the governor's claim to get rid of them and how you could ever do that in theory. I was being faceitious with my remark and surely don't think anyone deserves to be spied on.

I would still love to hear how schools are worse than in the past. I see the amazing growth where Special Ed. students have a chance for an education and gifted students can learn at their levels, as can all kids now.

[Justine Cooper]

Danielle,
I agree with your teacher and your post. Do we raise children to be "human capital" like our government wanted or "human beings"? By last period the kids' eyes are glazed, it is time to leave the school. They are children. Any parent who wants more for their children can do tutoring or tutor themselves.

Too many people seem to be dying younger, kids and parents. At the end of the day, will more knowledge pushed into our kids' heads matter more than more time with them to see "authentic" learning like Danielle spelled out with vacations free from stress, museums, traveling to other parts of the country and world to see what they are studying? We were all educated with regular school years, and all turned out OK with choices for further education after high school.

[Gary Rice]

Gee Justine,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

With a sad smile though, I cannot help but notice the numerous grammatical, syntax, spelling and other errors that repeatedly seem to come from school detractors.

These, not counting the typos of course, that all of us can make.

Perhaps some of them might be due for a refresher course or two?

A few might benefit from fact-checking, before making their submissions as well.

Also- being able to discern between fact and opinion.

[Dee Martinez]

Mr. Call I have not wrestled with you for a while and I am sure you have missed me.
But you are a serious man who has given some thought to this topic so I want to ask you a serious question.

First the hypotethical.

Lets just say the earth stops spinning on its axis and the State decides to fund all schools via a stat income or sales tax. Just to use round numbers, it raises $10 billion dollars to spend $10,000 dollars on each one of 1 mil Ohio students.
With me so far?

Now suppose that Smartville, OH decides they want more programs and more teachers than $10,000 dollars will pay for. Maybe they want Chinese classes or a baroque orchestra. So they get together and decide to raise an extra $5,000 per child thorugh a LOCAL PROPERTY or income tax.
How would you stop the people of Smartville from doing that? And if you cant stop them, arent we right back to where we are now?

The question is and I dont have an answer but Id like to hear your thoughts. There are quite a few ways to bring some schools up but how can we bring other schools DOWN and if we cant wont we always have the 'gap'?

[Bill Call]

Mr. Call I have not wrestled with you for a while and I am sure you have missed me.How would you stop the people of Smartville from doing that? And if you cant stop them, arent we right back to where we are now?

The question is and I dont have an answer but Id like to hear your thoughts. There are quite a few ways to bring some schools up but how can we bring other schools DOWN and if we cant wont we always have the 'gap'?

Yes, I did miss you. I love a good argument but hate a fight of any kind.

You make an excellent point.

The underlying logic of the Ohio Supreme Court is that it is unfair for one district to spend more than another district. If that is the case at some point there will be a rationing of education dollars.

In the Obamanation as long as there is paper there will be money so maybe we should give up on the idea of local dollars and local control and just go with the flow.

On the other hand the worst districts in the country spend the most money. Where does that leave the argument that it is unfair for one district to spend more than another?

[sharon kinsella]

Not going to climb into this den, have my own things to work on.

Just wanted to throw out there the fact that teachers, daily, go into rooms that hold themselves and up to 30-40 kids. In Junior and Senior Highs, teachers often have 7 disparate classes with the same amount of kids.

How many people would choose to spend their workday doing this? Truly, would you want to wrangle a Junior High class, keep them engaged and teach them something while hormones and attitudes are flying around the room?

Not me, that's for sure.

In my book, teachers are heroes and have helped me raise very well educated, well rounded and successful kids.

What could be better?

[Danielle Masters]

How about teaching a class of 30 1st graders (6 and 7 year olds) like my son's teacher does. I can't imagine trying to teach that many kids. And while I am very angry at the district that my son's teacher is forced to do that I am impressed by how well she does. I agree completely with Justine in this day and age of people making multi-millions just to entertain us I have no problem paying a teacher $60,000 a year to teach, love and mold our most precious people. I get so sick of our teachers being attacked. I have many friends that teach and they are certainly not the bottom of the bunch. I haven't experienced any teachers here in Lakewood that are not very educated people and they earn every single penny they make.