Plan 920 From Outer Space - Sticklands Schools Funding Plan

[Bill Call]

According to the Plain Dealer the Governor intends to make changes in House Bill 920.

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2009/ ... _stat.html

That bill limits the amount of dollars generated by a school levy to the amount approved by the voters.

http://www.cardinal.k12.oh.us/highschoo ... hb_920.htm

Changes in the law would allow annual increases in property taxes without a vote of the people.

It seems the problem with school finances is that your property taxes are too low. Is this what you had in mind when you were told the State should fix school funding?

[David Anderson]

Bill -

Yes.

Anyone who has followed this issue at all knows that any adjustments will mean more tax dollars spent on education. If adjustments would bring the cost down this would have been accomplished a decade ago.

Now, you’re making the highly likely assumption that more tax dollars being spent on primary and secondary education is synonymous with higher tax rates somewhere. You are obviously wary, as are the rest of us, of hearing politicians say, “In these tough economic times, the budget is as tight as possible. Spending can’t be cut elsewhere. Our only option is to increase the tax rate.â€￾

Taft refused to determine the baseline rate needed to educate a student knowing that it would amount to a mammoth increase – he didn’t think a reapportionment of current tax revenue dollars would fix the formula.

I suggest we wait for the details before dissecting Strickland's proposed policy.

[Bill Call]

I suggest we wait for the details before dissecting Strickland's proposed policy.

Sentence first, trial afterwords.

I am underwhelmed.

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2009/ ... nnoun.html

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Nm ... JmNDg4ZDc=

The general idea is that the State needs to cut $4 billion to balance its budget at the same time increasing school funding by $1 billion (Lakewood won't see ten cents) meaning cuts of $5 billion. Anyone think that will happen? (Of course if it does happen that leaves the question: If the State can operate with $5 billion dollars less just what was done with that $50 billion over the last ten years?)

His proposal from more testing seems silly given the hysterical opposition to testing in the education establisment. Are there really going to be MORE tests?

I'm not sure what he hopes to accomplish by demanding colleges provide free classes to high school students to be paid for with higher fees for college students.

Longer school years and longer school days have no affect on education outcomes. Anyway, if you are going to increase the amount of hours worked by teachers they will reasonably expect 20% more incompentation. Where is that money going to come from?

Stickland thinks property taxes should automaticly increases to pay for whatever the teachers unions demand. Since he wants local communities to vote on that only places like Lakewood will be burdened by that change.

The one idea that might have some legs is this:

Teachers unions and employees of school districts and various special interest groups get their followers appointed to a new commission. The commissions job will be to determine a minimum funding level that each district should provide.

To no one's surprise the commission finds that we just don't spend enough money.

On one hand I'm not to worried because the Governor has promised not to raise taxes.

On the other hand that's not the way the new political system works. How does it work?

The new commission decides that State and local communities don't spend enough on education. The courts mandate 100% property tax increases to properly fund the schools. After all didn't the independent commission decide we don't spend enough money?

At that point the Governor has no choice but to obey they law.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

I'm not sure what he hopes to accomplish by demanding colleges provide free classes to high school students to be paid for with higher fees for college students.

Bill, this has already been in place for a long time. Well, in a way. PSEO. Out of the 15 students in my photo class at LCCC last semester, 7 were seniors from neighboring high schools, going to college for free. Of course their school district picks up the tab at the end of the semester, they have to keep receipts from materials and they will get replenished. They have up to $2000 in materials per semester, per student.

Longer school years and longer school days have no affect on education outcomes.

Oh really? Is this why the US is ranked 9th amongst other developed nations in student achievement?

Let me put it this way. My ten year old cousin in Germany has a more rigorous school schedule than anyone, including myself, has had in their years of K-12 schooling here in the States. I have friends in Bosnia, of all places, that were doing Chemistry in middle school. But granted, in Bosnia, you start college at the age when the US students start high school. By the time the American student reaches their senior year of High School, the Bosnian student is already in the work force. Granted, a degree from a "Yugoslavian" University doesn't count for anything at all. But a US degree will get you a job anywhere in the world.

Although I've been blessed with many great teachers at LHS, the bad teachers made me give up pursuing a degree in Photography, and picking up a degree in Education. My freshman year of college, I was stunned when I could write, read, and speak English better than my classmates that were born here. Compared to other immigrants, I see why I always hear "Oh wow! You have only lived here ten years? I never would've guessed!".

Bill, maybe your right. Maybe it's not the number of days that kids spend in school that's causing rankings to head south. Maybe it's the students that are getting teaching degrees. Maybe it's the relatively low expectations that are placed on students. I think that if statistics are showing that our global rankings in Education are sinking down further and further, but more students are graduating with college degrees, the statistics will keep getting worse because incompetent teachers will be teaching weak material to kids.

Teachers nowadays have to make the best out of what they have. The federal government pays 9 cents for every dollar spent on a child. Of the 19 countries that are ranked every year, the US is only behind Switzerland on funding per child. But yet they are 9th on the list of overall quality of Education.

So it's not the number of days, it's not the funding, because there are several countries (ie. Canada) that rank higher in quality but pay less per student. That leaves three things. Expectations, Quality of the Teachers, and the Curriculum.

The only way I see number of days playing a role in the quality of Education is through raising expectations. But we cannot do what NCBL does now, which is slap a raised bar and then cut funding for those that do not meet it. These higher expectations should be gradually raised and controlled.

So until we decide to spend more tax money on a school system, we should find a system that works. It's obvious that NCBL is not the way to go. Raised expectations are good, but if you raise them too high/too quickly, you will find a lot of schools that are staggering along to meet the NCBL bar, when they barely met or fell short on the previous bar of expectations before NCBL came about.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

I meant to add this article from Time. It's a really good read.

Help! Teachers can't teach!"

[Bill Call]

First, excellent post.

Second, I admire people who can speak more than one language. I took three years of high school German lived for Germany for three years and today can't speak two words of German. My excuse was always that I just didn't have the knack.

Except..that I forgot the ten thousand hour rule. A sports figure once said that to be really great at something you need to practice ten thousand hours. The only thing most of us spend ten thousand hours doing to watching television or (for the younger crowd) playing video games.

Yes, other countries have longer school years and get better results but I don't think the two are related. If bad teachers and bad students spent an extra 15 days together what would change?

Bill, maybe your right. Maybe it's not the number of days that kids spend in school that's causing rankings to head south. Maybe it's the students that are getting teaching degrees. Maybe it's the relatively low expectations that are placed on students. I think that if statistics are showing that our global rankings in Education are sinking down further and further, but more students are graduating with college degrees, the statistics will keep getting worse because incompetent teachers will be teaching weak material to kids.

I agree.

Your article from Time was from 1980. Well, we are spending more than ever and all of the criticisms are still valid.

So until we decide to spend more tax money on a school system, we should find a system that works.

That does not compute.

Think about how the money will be spent:

1. School Boards hire more administrators
2. Everyone make more money.
3. Retirement plans are more generous.
4. Medical plans are more generous.
5. More sick days, more holidays, more early retirements and then..
6. The money is all gone and then you hear..

The students are perfroming poorly because we ain't got enough money.

Sticklands plan is a propaganda exercies. He doesn't have enough money to do any of the things he proposes and if he did the amounts of extra money would do nothing to "reform" education funding.

Keep in mind that when people talk about reforming the way we fund education what they mean is:

I pay less you pay more.

[Sean Wheeler]

Here comes Bill again with his education problems.

1. 20 more school days does not equate to a 20% increase in total days attended. Therefore, as a teacher, I would not be asking for a 20% pay increase. I would, however, expect to get paid for the days I work. I hope everyone with a job feels that we should get paid when we work.

2. I agree with the Ohio Supreme Court when they state that funding via property taxes is inherently unfair and unconstitutional. That being said, we need to fix HB 920 because it does not allow for inflation and housing value changes. As a Lakewood resident, you are witnessing a school district that is getting by on a levy that was designed to provide for four years of adequate funding. As of next year, we will be on year 8 of that 4 year plan. Not bad. Pretty fiscally responsible, it seems to me.

3. Your continual assumption that our schools aren't working is still mystifying to me. I would love to know what this assumption is based on. Our test scores are solid, our graduation rate is solid, and the students continue to receive excellent opportunities. Is there room for improvement? Always. I'd start by looking at the racial achievement gap.

4. I think Strickland has it about half right. I especially agree with making it easier to fire ineffective teachers. Any shift away from the OGT and towards the end of course exams that the ACT people are working on is a good idea. I just wish we could fund schools as a straight 1% income tax as opposed to the illegal way in which we currently, and apparently in the future, fund schools.

[Justine Cooper]

As a student in Education I can promise you that instead of lowering standards they continue to raise the bar to become a teacher. You can't have anything lower than a B, which I get, you must produce a complete portfolio for twelve standards with artifacts from your classes and then justify to a board why you chose that artifact. You of course have to pass teachers' exams, at least two for Special Ed and then a third to be "highly qualified" and then one more after teaching for a year. Like always, you have to complete and pass student teaching, fifteen weeks of full time work that you pay for, with a supervisor checking in depth lesson plans, unit plans, more papers, etc. The course I have been in at CSU have had extremely competent professors who have taught progressive reform in Curriculum, how to engage students, how to utilize all kinds of teaching strategies to teach to all kinds of learners.

Are there lazy and burnt out teachers in this country? Yep there are. There are also really dedicated ones who work harder than anyone I know. And I know from being at my kids' school-most specifically Hayes right now, they are amazing in what they do. I have observed enough here in Lakewood and in other cities to feel extremely blessed that my kids are in school in Lakewood. I also do know that in the high school there are both, because I have heard enough stories. I wish there was a solution to that. But there must be enough great teachers because the scores speak for themselves and we should be very proud, especially considering we have more diversity to bring together in education.

As for our country as a whole:

In the early 1900's most kids didn't make it to middle school and worked in factories. Most preferred to work in factories because the school conditions were horrible. Teachers had no training and rural schools were especially in disarray.

The initial goal for education in this country was to "work hard and please God".

Curriculum has been debated and "reformed" for over a hundred years, first reformed by John Dewey who believed in educating students to be productive members of society and instill character building along with academics.

At one point females and blacks weren't allowed to be educated.

Reform changed after Russia went to space and people freaked out here and wanted to "go back to basics" and do more math and academics.


According to Joel Spring "Public schools exist to serve public goals not the desires of individual parents. Public goals are determined by elected representatives in local, state, and federal governments influenced by numerous interest groups. The goals for public schools established in the nineteenth century were reducing political and social unrest by teaching future citizens a common set of political values and patriotism....Educational goals have accumulated over time placing a heavy burden on schools, particularly on administrators and teachers. School staff are called upon to be the first line of defense in world economic competition while at the same time, being asked to create cultural harmony and end crime"

The point is, when were schools better than they are now?

Graduation rates are up for the poor, non-English speaking, for special education students.

For those who think sex education shouldn't be taught in schools to help prevent diseases and teen pregnancies, are you aware that when Home Economics was introduced to American education, its purpose was to teach women how to help the men? "A clean and cheerful house, it was believed, would reduce alcoholism because husbands would want to hurry home from work rather than stop at a tavern".

And we haven't come far in education?

And, if it makes you feel any better Bill, I made more as a secretary than I will probably start at as a teacher with a Master's degree, years of hard work and thousands of dollars spent. I can never speak for all teachers, but I can guarantee one thing: there aren't many doing it for the money.

[Justine Cooper]

Oh and Cleveland schools stay open when all other schools close and safety is a real issue to be on the roads. Why? Some say to get the kids in for breakfast and lunch and then they can send them home early.

How many think it is OK to endanger the lives of the teachers who drive there, mostly from other communities and most who have their own children to take care of, to provide meals. When did that become the schools' job?

There are broken systems in this country, and if parents rely on the schools to feed their children because they can't or won't, the systems that are broken lie outside the school.

[Danielle Masters]

How do people feel about year-round schooling? I grew up in San Diego and I was in year-round school. I loved it but it was all I ever experienced. I'll admit as a kid I loved it because summer was just long enough to not get board and then we got three mini breaks during the year. During our brief stint in Arizona our children were in a year round school also. The teachers I have spoken too have said the one benefit of year round schooler is the shorter summer break and because of that kids tend to retain more information. I have heard in traditional schools the first month is spent re-teaching. I enjoyed reading Ivor's stories about schooling in Europe. Sometimes here in the US we have the opinion that things can't be changed or improved especially if it involves looking at how other nations do things. I think it's time that as a nation we look at what works and what doesn't. And on a personal note all five of my children are in Lakewood public schools in various different programs and I have been pleased with the education they have received. My oldest is now in 7th and he is a child that needs to be challenged and I am pleased that the teachers he has had have challenged him and giving him tremendous opportunities to learn. I hate when I hear people say there are bad teachers because I know a lot of teachers through my kids and many of my friends and relatives throughout the US teach. People go into teaching because they have a passion to teach period.

[Justine Cooper]

Hi Danielle! Glad to see I am not the only one not out having an exciting Saturday evening! Most of my posts are probably weekend evenings while doing my online class! I don't know that I would love all year school but I see what you are saying about retaining and losing! There is still much to be learned in this country about doing things better and learning and hopefully changing NCLB.

While I share you views on teachers here, I will say that I have seen "bad" teachers too though. And I think it is safe to say we all grew up with some teachers that should NOT have been teaching! That is one of the reasons I went into it. But like I said and you said, there are way too many great ones right here in Lakewood to ever make blanket statements about teachers.

My mentor teacher in Cleveland buys lunch at the end of every month for anyone who has read ten books and did ten reports. Now none are above a second grade reading level but she is trying to inspire reading nonetheless, and it all comes out of her pocket, like her other incentives. What many don't know when they complain about teachers is the money they spend, and there are evenings and other time spent outside the school hours. And many unsung heroes.

[Danielle Masters]

I do agree Justine there are certainly some bad teachers but I have not run into too many. As for the out of pocket money teachers spend I think most people would be surprised that and the money parents give too and I don't mean for our own kids. I mean the many parents that buy extra supplies throughout the year for the classroom and needy students. I do worry about the teachers that can't afford the extras and don't have any parents that can either. In a perfect world I would love all students to get the same quality of education but sadly that is not the case, many times in life it does come down to money.

[Lynn Farris]

I have 2 questions about this.

1) Didn't the Ohio Supreme Court rule that our reliance on property tax was unconsitutional. Doesn't this put more of a burden on property tax theorectically?

2) Isn't this the first time in a long time that property tax has been falling? Would this mean that taxes would actually be lower? For most people property value in Ohio has fallen significantly. I'm curious as to if the net proceeds in Lakewood would be higher or lower.

Taxing based on property tax, particularily in this economy when people are trying desperately to hold on to their homes when they may have lost their jobs is a bad idea. With income tax, when your income goes up, you don't mind paying more, but if you lose your job or get downsized, you pay less. That seems a much more fair way to handle it. JMHO

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Justine,

Great point.

During my senior of year of high school, some of my teachers received $7.76 from the district to spend on classroom materials for the school year.

Mr. Wheeler, it's always nice to see you jump in. I finished reading "Inferno" in three reading sessions (three nights), and now I'm starting Purgatory. All of my friends who have read the Divine Comedy said that it's really "heavy" stuff, but I love it. From the way Dante describes each ring, to realizing this was written many hundreds of years ago, his choice of words fascinates me. Anyone that can appreciate a great book, or a great painting that comes from a great mind, can see just how ahead of it's time this story is.

If you think about it, anything that's considered a "classic" was written or drawn/created many generations ago. You don't hear many artists that are still working being praised. Not to the degree of Van Gogh, Monet, Picasso, Dali, etc. While some of the artists named created art not too long ago, (looking at the big picture), these artists were decades ahead of their fellow men (and women) when it came to style, technique, execution.

I think authors fall in the same category as the great minds of painters and composers. They paint with verbs, adjectives and nouns. They carefully place words in ways an artist would place pressured strokes and colors into a painting.

Ah, I could go on for days. See what you've created Mr. Wheeler?

I'll bring this post back to the topic, education. I have read more books in my two years of college (by choice, on my own, not for assignment) than in my 18 years of life before college combined. A lot of it has to do with the new wave of English teachers at LHS.

I came to this country knowing as much English as a two year old. I hated reading because I didn't understand it. By 5th grade, I was almost caught up to my classmates. I had a great ESL teacher, as well as other teachers who taught my friends and I at McKinley. Nowadays, I finish "Inferno" from the Divine Comedy in 7 hours of reading, split up into three nights. That's at a rate of about 54 pages an hour. And I can tell you the details of the book, because I understand what I read now.

I never had Mr. Wheeler as a teacher, but after one cup of coffee and about an hour of talking, he's inspired me to pursue reading more, and pushing myself to read challenging material so that I'm getting better. I went from hating to read, to wanting to become an English teacher. Of course, my decision was made up over time. But for Mr. Wheeler to inspire me so much in that hour, (15 minutes was spent on talking about english and education), imagine what he does for kids over the course of a year. Day after day.

Imagine a society where great minds, such as great philosophers, doctors, painters, musicians, scientists, are being taught by mediocre teachers. All of a sudden, good is great, mediocre is good, and bad is decent, and horrible is acceptable.

A retired teacher and good friend once told me, "The only statues and plaques that a teacher will get for their dedication and hard work are the students that they inspire."

So when you think that teachers are in it for the $30,000 a year salary and June, July and August, think again. I'm sure there's teachers out there that are in it for those very reasons, but I haven't come across one yet. What I have come across is teachers that are passionate, love what they teach and who they are teaching, and work hard to be a positive influence on young minds, and only have 42 minutes to do all of the wild things that are expected from teachers nowadays.

Bill, I have a hard time believing you would put up with these types of responsibilities and have to deal with the crap students give teachers nowadays for such a low salary. As an accounting major, you should know that all of the "negatives" + $30,000 a year with a masters degree does not equal the type of job a person in their right mind would want to do.

But if everyone was in their "right mind" and would become an accounting major like you, then they wouldn't have any numbers to crunch, because without a teacher and a textbook like the one Luca Pacioli wrote, you wouldn't have a damn thing to do right now as you're sitting there crunching more numbers and looking for something or someone else to belittle.

And as for the "I pay less, you pay more" theory, it doesn't compute.

I'm sure there are many millions, (billions, if you take the population of the entire world into account) who would rather pay more now to teach kids, than to pay less for education and end up with an elected official like our last president, who wants everyone, regardless of where they were born, only speaking english, when he himself can't pronounce Nuclear, thinks the world has "misunderestimated" him, and ponders over questions like "is our children learning?".



I'm one of the many. I'd rather pay a little more now, than pay a lot more later. We'll have to pay for education in one way or another eventually. We might not have the money now, but once we do have the economy working again and there is money to spend on education, we'll spend it on something else and education will get swept under the rug once more.

[Charlie Page]

So when you think that teachers are in it for the $30,000 a year salary and June, July and August, think again. I'm sure there's teachers out there that are in it for those very reasons, but I haven't come across one yet. What I have come across is teachers that are passionate, love what they teach and who they are teaching, and work hard to be a positive influence on young minds, and only have 42 minutes to do all of the wild things that are expected from teachers nowadays.

Bill, I have a hard time believing you would put up with these types of responsibilities and have to deal with the crap students give teachers nowadays for such a low salary. As an accounting major, you should know that all of the "negatives" + $30,000 a year with a masters degree does not equal the type of job a person in their right mind would want to do.

But if everyone was in their "right mind" and would become an accounting major like you, then they wouldn't have any numbers to crunch, because without a teacher and a textbook like the one Luca Pacioli wrote, you wouldn't have a damn thing to do right now as you're sitting there crunching more numbers and looking for something or someone else to belittle.

And as for the "I pay less, you pay more" theory, it doesn't compute.

I'm sure there are many millions, (billions, if you take the population of the entire world into account) who would rather pay more now to teach kids, than to pay less for education and end up with an elected official like our last president, who wants everyone, regardless of where they were born, only speaking english, when he himself can't pronounce Nuclear, thinks the world has "misunderestimated" him, and ponders over questions like "is our children learning?".

In 2006-2007 school year, the average Lakewood Teacher Salary was $60,977. In that year, Lakewood spent $12,019 per pupil.

http://www.ofcs.k12.oh.us/docs/0-Busine ... Issue1.pdf

How much should we be paying/spending?

The "I pay less, you pay more" theory means the State pays less and local pays more.