ANNOUNCEMENT: New Logo for Downtown Lakewood

[Jill Jusko]

Mr. O'Bryan,

In the spirit of openness and transparency, can you share how came up with a quarter of a million dollars price tag?

In that same spirit, clarify this: As I mentioned in an earlier thread I have just completed my interview with the second person and the "sign" meeting, and it would seem, that it was not a committee to look at or design signs, but more of a Chinese menu. Pick one from column A, one from column B, etc. So that possibly once again it is a very small select group trying to make their decision look like consensus building. Simply put a fraud.

You cite a lot of unnamed sources while demanding transparency from all others (not just in this thread). Is that walking the talk?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Mr. O'Bryan,

In the spirit of openness and transparency, can you share how came up with a quarter of a million dollars price tag?

You cite a lot of unnamed sources while demanding transparency from all others (not just in this thread). Is that walking the talk?

Jill

I just did.

As with many of the problems that came out of this is the smoke.

As i said the original coast according to Tom Jordan was $330,000 for the study. I would imagine that this was cut back. When we first got the grant I asked him if City Architecture, would do it for less, or would we owe them more?

I believe the money LakewoodAlive is working with is from that same grant. Another very real possibility is that this money could only be used for signage. Who knows that was never said.

My 1/4 million number comes from the entire plan, as it is known right now. Signage, placement, costs that can be found and kiosks. As I mentioned this is one of my businesses so costs are easy to figure.

As for the column A, B C I feel no need to say who. As the website offers the exact same thing, which would back up the claim and you can see for yourself.

Jill I really do not mind being called out on that but please, call out others as well.

If at the end, if this does not satisfy your request, please let me know and I will try again.

Thanks for asking.


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[Jill Jusko]

Mr. O'Bryan,
I call you out in particular only because you frequently cite yourself as an example of openness and transparency, yet you frequently cite unnamed sources in your posts. I'm not really concerned about it, except that I have seen you call others out for that same "unnamed" aspect, going so far as to suggest that the conversation or the person never happened or doesn't exist. It just seems like that's a bit of a double standard.

As far as the price tag calculation, you've explained it is some fact and some educated guesses on your part. So that does help me. Thank you.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

So,

how 'bout them signs?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jill

I would like to say I see nothing wrong with study groups until they are reported as something completely different.

To be honest I really would see nothing wrong with "Downtown" signs just appearing downtown. It is probably how I would have handled it, only using a Lakewood design team.

It is the illusion, of committee and choice that drives me nuts. If outside input is not really being sought, let the people sit home and watch Dancing with the stars, or enjoying time with their family.

Go back and read the original post. Help with design, mentioned. They also mention that after the committee meetings the board of trustees made the final choice. From the website it would seem they made the choice first. Then gave the study group a chance to voice their opinion.

Of course, the cost would still be a legitimate question, as would be the need.

Please note when Mary Anne mentioned it would replace the hideous "Mainstreet Logo" I thought it was good enough.

FWIW


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[Jim O'Bryan]

Mr. O'Bryan,
I call you out in particular only because you frequently cite yourself as an example of openness and transparency, yet you frequently cite unnamed sources in your posts. I'm not really concerned about it, except that I have seen you call others out for that same "unnamed" aspect, going so far as to suggest that the conversation or the person never happened or doesn't exist. It just seems like that's a bit of a double standard.

As far as the price tag calculation, you've explained it is some fact and some educated guesses on your part. So that does help me. Thank you.

Jill

My life is an open book. most of which I am not all that proud of. But it is there and I take ownership of it.

I really think I hold the Observer out as a vehicle for transparency, and openness. Not myself, but I stand here willing to answer what I can.

Please feel free to call me out or hold my feet to the fire whenever you feel the need. I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

Thanks for taking part.


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[Dustin James]

Okey dokey.

Just an observer here. Lot’s of emotion and that’s okay, but to what end? Lynn and Jim have found the distilled question.

RFP.

This is not a personality issue. It should not be political, nor any questions about work ethic, motives or agendas. It’s not about how hard an organization is working, or its elected directors, workers and vendors.

If it’s stripped to the core, it’s about process.

RFP. Request For Proposal (for those living in Rocky River).

What is the problem statement?
What research created the need for action?
Was it a comparison to other cities that had problems to solve, but maybe not the same ones?
What does success look like?
Is there a local firm that can solve this stated problem? (don’t know until they can read the problem statement)
Is it possible that this design problem can be pro-bono and actual money spent on production materials? (thus extending the effort for the common good)

The issue is not how one group has better intentions than another. What this points out is that it’s easy to have good intentions. What is hard is doing due-diligence.

We all gravitate to the path of least resistance. It’s easier to call a trusted vendor, than to open it up to unknowns. It’s a hassle, let’s be honest. Why spend time using one of the district's largest public forums (the LO) as one outlet for requesting input?

The issues and concerns raised here all point to the concept of RFP. That’s it. No mystery.

No need for indignation, accusation or frustration. A process that could have been utilized evidently was not – and it’s rather embarrassing for the parties involved. Okay. So, lessons learned, acknowledge that there should be more inclusion, or revert to business as usual?

That’s where this is at IMHO. What does success look like? Have these efforts been effective in the past with a list of accomplishments? What is the ROI? (return on investment for those in….

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[stephen davis]

Charlie,

Interesting post.

I’ve lived in Lakewood for almost 25 years, so I’m a relative newcomer. During that time, I’ve worked on my share of Lakewood civic projects, and campaigns, along with many current LakewoodAlive members. I learned a lot from all of these experiences.

Lakewood people will almost always step up to do the best for their community. Look at their record for passing school levies, building new schools, and just look at the new library construction! They understand value added, and will vote to raise their taxes. It’s proven that they’re not cheap or resistant out of hand, but don’t expect them to be pushovers.

If you want support from a significant majority of Lakewood residents, you have to show them respect, have a plan that makes sense, be willing to educate ad nauseam, involve them in the process as early as possible, listen and be willing to adjust to what you hear, and most of all, know that some people will never be won over, but still stay honest in your message to them.

I’m getting a perception that ‘open and transparent’ means posting all information about your group or cause on the Observation Deck. If you’re not posting then you have something to hide.

I think you’re wrong on that, but if you don’t post here, you are missing an opportunity to get your message out, and as painful as it may be, you are missing an opportunity to see how your plan and message might play in the community. It’s also an opportunity to mine the community for ideas that can be incorporated into a plan.

We have a mayor, some council persons, some school board members, a library director, city officials, merchants, churches, numerous organizations, and many residents that seem to be able navigate these LO waters to everybody’s advantage.

As Mary Anne stated, the 2005, 2006 and 2007 form 990’s are ready and waiting for review at the Guidestar website. Alternatively, you can hold those 990’s in your hands during LA’s office hours. The 2008 990, according to Mary Anne, will be posted on LA’s website when completed. Their 2008 annual report is already on their website. What could be more open and transparent than that?

I am not interested in every minute detail, but I didn’t find the annual report to be very informative.

As for how much the City contributes to LA’s operations? That’s a fair question. However, the City helps out in other ways. Think of the cost involved in closing part of Detroit for Light Up Lakewood and the Spooky Pooch Parade.

I certainly believe that the city should participate with police and logistics for these types of events, and I’m sure the community understands that none of that is free.

Jim O’Bryan and I, for years, have talked about successful communities being SAFE, CLEAN, and FUN. This idea was not derived from scientific study, but from anecdotal evidence, so don’t test me on it. It’s a simplification, I know. Schools, obviously another critical element, are not in this part of the discussion.

The first order of business for city government is to provide SAFE and CLEAN with available resources. FUN can often come from the residents and merchants, but city government should have a supporting role.

The second order of business for city government is to expand available resources for improvement of services related to SAFE, CLEAN, and FUN. Encouraging rational development and enforcement can snowball with the other elements to improve property values and the tax base.

Unfortuantely, Lakewood, and Ohio, and the United States, and the world, are suffering the pinch of limited or diminished resources (I’m sure you’ve seen the news.). I think our residents will, and probably should, pay a little more attention to city finances. Government allocation of discretionary funds needs to be prudent, and provide the best bang for the buck. Outside organizations receiving government money will have to prove effectiveness and transparency.

The upside is that Mayor Fitzgerald and our City Council have so far demonstrated their understanding of all of these concepts through good stewardship in these tough times. I trust that with that understanding, and reasonable citizen input, good decisions will be made.

As far as Studio Graphique is concerned, I’m sure it would have been a tough message to deliver that LA went with a local design firm, considering the amount of personal time their Marketing Director devoted to attending LA meetings. However, it’s an even tougher message to swallow that no one in Lakewood has the experience to deliver a top notch sign design. This would have been an excellent opportunity for one or more local firms to get some wayfinding design experience. It would certainly be a resume builder for when other cities decide they need a ‘more inclusive way of assessing all the environmental issues that affect our ability to find our way’.

A rational and unprejudiced comment. It’s a tough call. My only question is whether we really needed signs, wayfinding, both, or neither. I did not participate in the development project, so all I can do is ask questions. See what happens when you don’t participate?


Steve


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[Charlie Page]

Steve,
All good comments and I agree with them. However, I do see from time to time when people post information on the Deck they are praised for being open and transparent while the same information could be found if going directly to the group’s website or by Googling. A good example of this is with Jenn Pae’s post yesterday of the ‘2008 City of Lakewood Overview’. Her post received the following comments despite the same information on the City’s website. The text of her post was included in an email I received from her because I signed up to receive the ‘balanced budget update' emails (there’s a link in the finance section of the City’s website to do this).

This open and transparent activity makes residents part of the process.

Agreed!

If a city with a multi-million dollar budget can do this, what's the excuse of organizations that cannot seem to do the same?

Yes, it’s outstanding that the City is using the Deck to distribute information. But it’s not the only avenue to receive information relating to City Hall. I wanted info about the budget, so I signed up for the emails. I wanted info on the Green Refuse Initiative, so I went to the City’s website. I wanted to see the upcoming council docket, so I went to the City’s website. I don’t wait around for someone to post it on the Deck. Being open and transparent doesn’t mean making the Deck your own mini portal to all things Lakewood.

Also from time to time various City leaders and School Board members come on the Deck and add to discussions, which are very much welcomed, while others who don’t chime in are considered lurkers and it’s suggested they have something to hide. Each member of council has an email address and phone number. Council meetings are held twice a month. I’m sure BOE members have email addresses and phone numbers as well. Most, if not all, have full time jobs and they should not have to make an appearance on the Deck to be qualified as open and transparent.

FWIW, I also question the need for wayfinding signs. Outside of the Library, Beck Center and various parks, there’s not a whole lot of places to find. And spending the kind of money JOB referenced simply does not make sense here.

[Grace O'Malley]

Charlie wrote:

Yes, it’s outstanding that the City is using the Deck to distribute information. But it’s not the only avenue to receive information relating to City Hall. I wanted info about the budget, so I signed up for the emails. I wanted info on the Green Refuse Initiative, so I went to the City’s website. I wanted to see the upcoming council docket, so I went to the City’s website. I don’t wait around for someone to post it on the Deck. Being open and transparent doesn’t mean making the Deck your own mini portal to all things Lakewood.

While you feel comfortable signing up for e-mailings and searching for sites on Google, not everyone does nor do they have the time to search specific web sites looking for information that is often difficult to locate even on well designed sites, much the less on poorly designed sites.

The city posted the budget info on the website, yes, but it also brought the information here to expand the audience. And that's the point - EXPANDING the audience to include as many people as possible.

If you want to market a product or idea to as many people as possible, you wouldn't just advertise in any one newspaper. To reach a broader audience, you would need to use many sources; print, the web, etc.

To be more inclusive, the information should be as easy to find as possible and that means making it readily available in as many venues as possible.

I like knowing that when I want to know more about anything related to my city, I can come here and ask a question. In fact, I can usually find people already talking about it.

Thats the beauty of this forum.

[stephen davis]

Charlie,

However, I do see from time to time when people post information on the Deck they are praised for being open and transparent while the same information could be found if going directly to the group’s website or by Googling.

I get your point about looking up your own info. I check in on the LO Observation Deck almost every day, and sometimes several times a day. I appreciate the newsy posts. I don't always have time to go directly to all of the sources of information.

My internet home page is sponsored by Google. It displays a collection of news headlines. I quickly pick the items that are of interest to me. It saves me from having to sweep the entire NY Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, AP, or Reuters sites to get a quick look at the news.

It's just handy. I think it is considerate of the posters to use available outlets that many people go to. Many people view the LO site. It just makes sense.

Being open and transparent doesn’t mean making the Deck your own mini portal to all things Lakewood.

See above.

Also from time to time various City leaders and School Board members come on the Deck and add to discussions, which are very much welcomed,...

It is very much welcomed, especially if it is timely and clarifies or debunks.

...while others who don’t chime in are considered lurkers and it’s suggested they have something to hide.

"Lurker" is an internet era expression that is not considered negative. Lurkers are readers that don't participate and often appear as "guests" on discussion boards. I am a lurker on some discussion boards. I may read with interest, but have nothing to add. Sometimes I have something to add, jump in, and end my lurking status. Maybe you've seen a comment that reads something like this, "I've been a lurker on this site for a long time, and I find it very informative. I have a question about..."

The LO Observation Deck has thousands of "lurkers" from Lakewood, and around the world. Not negative. Nothing implied.

Most, if not all, have full time jobs and they should not have to make an appearance on the Deck to be qualified as open and transparent.

Agreed, but as you mentioned, it is always appreciated. Obviously, you and I have noticed which elected officials have shown up here. Does it make you feel different about the ones that make that effort?


Steve


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[Jim O'Bryan]

Charlie

I would love to sit down and discuss this sometime, and we are putting more of it in the paper, but..

The gist of the Observer Project is to create a simple town center without agenda, without profit where everyone can post information, ask questions, and do what is needed in a community.

Many leaders in this city came to us when other sources failed miserably in fair and balanced. Some of those people who helped hone the idea you can see on the member list on page one and two. I think you might be amazed at who wanted REAL NAMES, and ACCOUNTABILITY at least in the early before they were asked to be accountable.

Another key feature of the Observer was that no paper was covering Lakewood. The sun had all but ignored us, giving us people of the week from Strongsville, Letters to the Editors from Solon, and front page stories from anywhere but Lakewood. This was something that needed to be addressed to bring cutting edge ideas, and programs to Lakewood. WE always knew this would cause the Sun to wake up, we never thought that they along with other Lakewoodites would work to shut us down, and kill public expression.

Programs, talking with every member of Council, and Tom George it became obvious that Lakewood needed help. It was also obvious that Lakewood could not afford much. So our goal was to start as many programs as possible for the betterment of the community at NO COST to residents or government. That way the city could concentrate on SAFE, CLEAN, FUN. To date I believe we have started the largest volunteer groups ever in this city.

As you well know it is not our agenda, it is helping people achieve their dreams and agendas, EVEN if they differ from our own personal views. Every member of the LO Board are civic stars in their own right, yet all have been willing to put that on the back burner to create this for ALL members of Lakewood.

Now we have gained national attention and the project is moving into other areas. While it pains me, as it could have lifted Lakewood faster than any other way. It has been refreshing working with other cities, politicians, government agencies and CDCs.

This is why it is so frustrating when people take their ball and either go home, or work to undermine the community effort. As you are a relative newby here, I will once again state that i have been viciously attacked, Ken has been viciously attacked, DL, Heidi, Steve, Dan, etc. Yet we all stood in answered the questions and i believe came out better and stronger for it. One reason was we use real names. I think you and I disagree often, but I also think we have a mutual understanding and appreciation. The other night I was speaking with Stephen Eisel, and likewise I really enjoy his posts even when aimed directly at me. I would rather he post it here in public than behind mu back. That way I can at least choose to answer the questions or not.

The immature "take my ball and go home" mentality serves no one any good especially the pouting child. We are adults, we all have views, opinions and knowledge that should be shared and built on. In my honest opinion as the "new" discussion board mentality grows, the propaganda machine like eletters and blogs will disappear. After all how good is an idea that cannot stand up to questions?

As always thank you for your posts and time.

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[Tim Liston]

This is nuts….

Here we have a thread where JO admitted that the incessant and harassing questioning of the original poster quite possibly became “shrillâ€￾ and “out of controlâ€￾ after the OP put forth “an incredible design for the city.â€￾ The inane questioning of an individual who “works hardâ€￾ and is “a great ambassador for the downtown area.â€￾

The shrillness was pretty much introduced by a poster who admitted that she was “somewhat guiltyâ€￾ and “too sickâ€￾ to attend the public meetings that addressed the signs. But chose to be really critical anyways. Hey at least she didn't use the demeaning "kiddo" invective. It was exacerbated by folks who incorrectly thought that $75,000 NOACA money was used to design the signs. Despite that the information regarding the disposition of these funds has been on the Deck for years. Transparency be dammed….

I mean heck, there was another concurrent thread (color survey) originated by the same someone that became so toxic that posts had to be removed, the thread had to be relocated, and now it is gone completely (I sure can’t find it). The one that solicited opinions about what colors might work best. Where is it and why did it disappear? Might it be because it typifies how well-meaning folks get treated around here from time to time?

Then you JO assert that that this someone is in the process of “spending a quarter million on wayfinding in downtown Lakewoodâ€￾ which is an obviously ridiculous assertion with no factual backing.

But instead of trying to calm things down you take it as an opportunity to promote your own agenda that claims “national attentionâ€￾ and asserts that several posters have been “viciously attacked.â€￾ (The only vicious attacks I have been associated with result in someone spending time in a hospital. Words backed by real names are not vicious no matter what they say. Man up JO.)

This thread the way it stands now needs to go away. But it obviously is has been hijacked for purposes other than the furtherance of our city. So here’s the only way I can figure to make it go away….

“Hey, I have an idea. Let’s get rid of backyard trash collection and use the money saved to knock down every house on Shelley’s street and build a jail there!â€￾

I mean how else can this thread get any worse….

Bye….

[stephen davis]

I mean heck, there was another concurrent thread (color survey) originated by the same someone that became so toxic that posts had to be removed, the thread had to be relocated, and now it is gone completely (I sure can’t find it). The one that solicited opinions about what colors might work best. Where is it and why did it disappear? Might it be because it typifies how well-meaning folks get treated around here from time to time?

Here is a link to the Color Survey thread:

http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7621

Right now it is on page 2 of the Lakewood General Discussion forum. As you know, threads are listed by the date of the last post, in descending order. No mystery. No conspiracy.

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[stephen davis]

This is nuts….

Yes!

The only vicious attacks I have been associated with result in someone spending time in a hospital.

Is that a threat?

I mean how else can this thread get any worse….

You're not being censored. I guess it's up to you.

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