What I have against business - nothing

[Jim O'Bryan]

Why buy a white car if you wanted blue?

Maybe I do want a white car.

I just also want to add pinstripes, ground effects, a booming stereo system, turbo, etc.

Doesn't change the main frame of the car now does it?

Or maybe I buy a classic car to restore - but it is a bit rusted, the upholstery is torn, etc.

I AM going to fix that car up so that I can preserve, use and appreciate it all while increasing its value.

It all comes back to the question:

If I replace the engine - is it still the same car?

If I pimp it out - is it still the same car?

If I use bondo? If I replace the panels with aftermarket where the original is no longer available?

You'll not likely get consistent answers to those questions either...

But my thought is yes - they are the same car. Loved, taken care of, improved and appreciated.

FFT
Charyn

PS - Joan, if youare taking a break - enjoy it - I truly understand. Just please return at some point. You add a lot of value and there are many here who appreciate you!!

Charyn

In the example, all effect the value and performance.

As this is your car I could care less...

A prefect example would be a 1974 Camaro SS. If left untouched it it worth far more than if you change anything. At the same time many come up for auction that have had people spend hundreds of thousands on, sell for tens of thousands.

My fear is creating a tangerine flake streamlined baby on the verge of avocado becoming the hot color. Wouold it not be wiser to seek the path not dependent on color for long range plans?


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[Charyn Compeau]

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[DougHuntingdon]

Joan you have to be in "the club" for your opinion to count more.

Doug

[Lynn Farris]

Jim, your comments have merit.

But I think I understand the concept of why people come here and want to change it.

I didn't grow up in Lakewood, but I have lived here for over 25 years.

Given that every place has problems, there is something that attracts you to a city.

For me, Lakewood was next to a big city with a small town feel. It was on the LAKE!!! It had big beautiful old homes. It was progressive, it was a neo-urbanist environment and it had amazing people.

I was sold on its potential. I thought this is a great city - but it could be even better.

1) Could we lower our taxes? Maybe not - but we might be able to hold the line on them.

2) Could we get more jobs? Definately.

3) Could we have a real beach? Absolutely.

4) Could we get involved in sustainability? Certainly.

Would any of this affect the Lakewood I love or make it better?

I think people are afraid of getting rid of the things they love about Lakewood and replacing it with what every other city has and losing its uniqueness. Maybe that is what you consider building the brand.

Wha we need to do is figure out what it is that attracts people to Lakewood and keeps them here. Then build on that. That is not what we change. Then we have to find out why people leave. Correct that without destroying the very thing that keeps them here.

No one wants a factory on Detroit - but maybe on Berea Rd. Few people want a McMall, but most people want more retail that is nice and unique with parking. I wish I had a dime for everyone that told me they wanted a book store in Lakewood. I don't know anyone that doesn't want a beach at Lakewood Park. Everyone wants clean, cheap energy - the methods to achieve it are argued - but the goals are the same.

I'm not against change - I'm all for it and I know you are too Jim. So is Joan and Shawn and Charyn and Doug. We are all in the same club and as you stated so poetically, this is a great forum to toss out ideas and see which ones excite people and which ones seem to destroy the essence of what we hold dear about Lakewood.

JMHO

[dl meckes]

Actually, I can imagine few humans who don't belong to the club of people who feel their voices aren't heard.

[Jim O'Bryan]

If it was owned by 5... 500... or 50,000 people I would believe that it should be the voice of the majority that should choose between tangerine and avocado.

And of they want tangerine and will be happy wioth tangerine - then so be it!!
Charyn

Charyn

Than you must love what we are doing at the Observer.

First it is all open and in the light, and 90% of it is funded with private money with no strain or expense to government or anyone that does not want the orange camaro. I could never ask you to move to reduce my taxes and I certainly do not want you to pay for my camaro or it's up keep.

No one is forced to join the Food Security Network, LO Block Watch, Write or Deliver papers, Car Show, ads, community currency, etc unless that want to. You do not even have to register to read about it.The LO is certainly more open then planning, schools, city hall, etc.

Doug

I am still interested in what "the club" is? and who's voice isn't being heard?


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[Kenneth Warren]

Maybe it's the Kiwanis Club?

Kenneth Warren

[Charyn Compeau]

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[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

As long as you brought up the Buzz, I will once again love to point out the differences that make this project stand on it's own, and should not be compared. But if you do not take the time to see the difference...

You do not have to sign in or leave an email to read this board. We do sell email lists, nor farm email addresses.

WE HAVE NEVER EDITED OR DELETED ANYONE'S POST. While the other has strictly for financial or personal gains. (deleted two of Joe Milan's posts by mistake, and had DL remove that ability)

We use real names, again, respect ,responsibility, have never had to edit or delete a post. You are what your write. Also we can guarantee Charyn, Joan, Doug, Ken, DL, Suzie and the other 1% of Lakewood, and estimated 7% that lurk, that Charyn is in a discussion with Jim, and not Jim using another 6 names backing up his point.

We do not allow banner or pop up advertising, and we could have made a money had we. Instead we have built over twenty other less in your face ways for advertisers to get their message out while showing support.

Advisory Board - Suggestion Box, we are open and continue to make this product better for everyone. To do that we have a board, we also have a ton of people that have been empowered to add. Now we are looking at how to be more inclusive in the running of this project.

The Lakewood Observer Advisory Board is also not so arrogant as to tell Lakewoodites how to vote, we would rather put out the points, hold public discussion and trust the resident to pick who they think are right for them.

Yet you compare and belittle the 3% of Lakewood that has taken part and put their name proudly on this project, comparing their hard work with the most restrictive forum possible outside of Siberia.

You say control and secret agendas are bad, then support a project that thrives on one person's view of what is right for you to see! Once again fight for one thing support another.


Charyn/Doug

How much more open can this get? There is no club, this is why we joke about it. Go back and read my notes. The VAL is a pyramid, or a circle, or a square!!! It is nothing more than a group of serious discussions with maybe hundreds of participants in Lakewood and on some things around the world.

But let's play your paranoid game - Let's say it was a group of people working in secret to make Lakewood better and more marketable. That their goal was safe clean affordable streets and securing the future of Lakewood and Lakewoodites for the next 50 years. What if this group worked day and night on ideas that make Lakewood better for all with no negative impact on our neighbors. Working not only to make Lakewood the best place to live but a place but a place with low costs of living, lowered through solid community involvement. Again, the only cost to anyone to check in is $0.00, just stop by. If you want to join in, please wear a name tag.

How is this so evil?

Joan Roberts is a member!!!! One idea thrown out was a bookstore in Lakewood. Ohhh the horror. I liked it because I thought it might work to help educate the kids I found left on my doorstep. Over 50 people had talked on the board and over lunch, when Joan brought up the single best reason for not doing it! Money saved, energies turned elsewhere.

How is this so evil?

How is this more evil, than Aldi's plan for Lakewood? Did you sit in on that meeting? Were you asked? When the Lakewood Catholic Academy, held on to the most valuable plot of land to launch a charter school that takes money away from our school system. Where you asked to that discussion or debate? When Lakewood sprung the "World Class Parking Lot" that would have cost the city $150,000 were you asked to that discussion? Right now the city is looking at spending money to keep a couple acres on Detroit non-profit instead of for profit ecodevelopment zone. Did the Beck or city call Charyn for those meetings? Since the Observer was launched, you have been able to attend a majority of ours, with no appoitnment or reservation required

Again, no one working at the Observer or on VAL are asking for one penny of your tax dollars, these are all private ventures and concepts. Just because you were not at the meeting doesn't make it secret. Not to worry we keep a running log on the Observation Deck. Do you do the same for your privately owned company? Michael was working with home based businesses, are those notes public? I was at one meeting but missed the rest. Where are the m inutes of the meeting from The Chamber Of Commerce? Why do they meet outside of Lakewood?

Meanwhile the EVIL Lakewood Observer not only invites you to the table 24/7/365. But will buy you coffee at least twice a month to sit and discuss ANYTHING. ANYTHING YOU WANT, and we pay! Once a month, just to loosen everyone's tongue, we have a meeting at a bar, or a picnic. You have been to the office, you know hoe accessible EVERYONE on the advisory board is, and that in fact we rarely agree which doesn't matter as we rarely meet.

But we do not have to because there is NO AGENDA for the Observer Project outside of helping Lakewoodites know more about Lakewood than they knew before and to build the Lakewood Brand through OPEN DISCUSSION and Printing EVERYTHING sent in, if not in the paper on the website. How does that Mission Statement aid any agenda outside of open disucssion?

Honestly, this topic is laughable. I apologize for making it seem like a club. One of the things we also laid out from day one was to never get so serious that it stopped being fun.

Charyn - One more small difference between the two, Observer pumps money back into the Lakewood economy with our work and help to Lakewood Charities, Entertainment, and programs that benefit the community. Also we do not collect email addresses for sale or sharing.

FINALY I WILL POST THIS AGAIN----

IF YOU KNOW OF ANY WAY TO MAKE THIS PROJECT BETTER.

POST IT.

We are about to go through another major upgrade in the next couple months to bring the many inprovements on line, and make room for audio, video, and some other additions that I think will help.


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[Charyn Compeau]

ROTFLMAO...........

really.

All I stated was that I felt the Buzz was a good project as well and I get this as a response? Here is the extent of my comment and or use of the buzz:

I have mentioned before that I believe that the Observer is a good project for community building. On that note I think the Buzz is also. .

And you want to tell me that I am paranoid?

For goodness sake.... *rolling eyes*

OH - And thank you for making my second point quite well.

Instead of trying to understand why I, Doug, Kate, Joan, Joe, etc. feel less than welcome from time to time you pull out the double barreled and make sure that you verbally assault me to the best of your ability.

I feel so very warm and fuzzy now... wait... wait... I just might break out into some Kumbayha....

opps - guess it was just the Mexican I had for dinner last night.

STILL **LMAO**
Charyn

PS - If you had lost your privileges, how then did you over-write a post of mine just a couple weeks ago? By my count (and I was offline for two months or so) there were at least five separate instances. All involving you, and all involving posts that were not compliant with your view of the world. Now - is it wrong that there are more than a few of us that find that fact a bit... interesting?

RE: Sales of emails - I set up a dedicated email for the Buzz and a different for the Observer when I signed up. It is a common security practice of mine (I have at least 10 yahoo emails - one for every forum I belong to). Wanna guess which one is inundated with spam?

For the record: This fact does not mean that my email was sold, andalthough that is a possibility I DONT think that was the case; however, it does mean that the Observer was the likely source for the spammers.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

Let's be honest. My message came after a long line of statements from you, or possible people whose comments you had decided to repeat but did not agree with about a secret society, that was somehow evil and that they Only Way to move the city forward was through openness.

I aksed you never answered why this needs to be public yet Michaelk does not post the note to the Chamber Small Business Group? Why the Chamber does not publish their current projects? Why the planning department doesn't? The schools? The churches? PTA? and why you feel we have to and they do not?

As for me over reacting, I know you are not proud of your kid's accomplishments, or of anything you helped to create. I do get a little excited and I am very proud of the large group that continues to add to this project. I hate to see their worked belittled by anyone.

I am proud that we are turning money back into civic events that can be enjoyed by anyone. I love the fact that we are looking at everything from scholarship programs, and house financing for Lakewood workers, that we support every church regardless of our beliefs. That no matter what you want to believe or say, the entire advisory board has word for over 3 years in some cases on making this as fair for everyone as we can.

So excuse me for loving a baby I am remotely related to.

So I imagine this is as close to an apology as I will get from you?



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[Charyn Compeau]

Charyn

Let's be honest. My message came after a long line of statements from you, or possible people whose comments you had decided to repeat but did not agree with about a secret society, that was somehow evil and that they Only Way to move the city forward was through openness.

I said VAL was evil? When please? You tout the open nature of the Observer. Others and myself only point out that there are aspects of this project that are not open - it is not always public and not always inclusive.

I asked you never answered why this needs to be public yet Michaelk does not post the note to the Chamber Small Business Group? Why the Chamber does not publish their current projects? Why the planning department doesn't? The schools? The churches? PTA? and why you feel we have to and they do not?

My answer: I know nothing of Michaelk and his need, desire, or lack thereof, to post any note. Nor do I know what their policy is regarding their current projects. (We belong to Shenango COC - not Lakewood's - as we found that there was no added value in joining the LCOC)

Also I would like to know where I advocated that school, churches and PTAs should not make public their agendas. Again, please - where did I say that? I *will* say that there are times when public officials need to be able to meet in private; however, that is apples and oranges again, so if that will be your reference then so be it - I admit to that one.

As for me over reacting, I know you are not proud of your kid's accomplishments, or of anything you helped to create. I do get a little excited and I am very proud of the large group that continues to add to this project. I hate to see their worked belittled by anyone.

Please - where did I belittle the work of the people on the Observer? Cant find that either.

I am proud that we are turning money back into civic events that can be enjoyed by anyone. I love the fact that we are looking at everything from scholarship programs, and house financing for Lakewood workers, that we support every church regardless of our beliefs. That no matter what you want to believe or say, the entire advisory board has word for over 3 years in some cases on making this as fair for everyone as we can.

You SHOULD be proud. Never said any different. I also dont doubt that you, and everyone else on the advisory board, are trying to be fair. So tell me, so I can understand this, is the advisory board the ones that manage the traffic that flows through the VAL? Are they the ones with the resources (human and financial) to bring suggestions to light? Are they the ones that order the projects for development and in none, some, or all cases fund them? And who, exactly are its members?

Or is this one of those things that, like the schools, or the Chamber, you really cant divulge? If so -GREAT - just dont tell me again how this is all open and free to the public if you can't answer some basic questions!

So excuse me for loving a baby I am remotely related to.

Let me use your analogy, Jim:

I, like you, love my babies very much. And like you, no matter their mistakes or successes, I advocate for and support them fully.

Where we differ... where we are LIGHT years apart... is that my love for my babies does not prevent me from loving everyone else's babies as well. I can see the good in all the babies - and appreciate them for their own unique place in this world. There is no conditions on loving one that prevents me from loving another.

I dont have to rip on the Buzz to enjoy the Observer and I will read the Sun and the PD and I will email my council people while talking to the mayor. I dont HAVE to pick only one, Jim - no-one should have to.

So I imagine this is as close to an apology as I will get from you?

What exactly do you feel I should apologize for?

Regards,
Charyn
_________________
________________________

(The mean Mom who doesn't let her children play in traffic)

[Charyn Compeau]

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[dl meckes]

So tell me, so I can understand this, is the advisory board the ones that manage the traffic that flows through the VAL? Are they the ones with the resources (human and financial) to bring suggestions to light? Are they the ones that order the projects for development and in none, some, or all cases fund them? And who, exactly are its members?

No, no, and no.

I don't have any more idea about the VAL than anyone else does and I don't have any clue whatsoever about any "ordered projects" should they exist (and I don't think they do).

One project I do know about is BikeLakewood, which is Tim Liston's baby. He's had the vision and energy to move that forward and if the Observer helped, great. I'd like to think we did. I do not have any knowledge whether the Observer kicked in any money to help, but I doubt it. I think we simply helped facilitate a little.

As an "adviser," my input on that was the enjoyment of looking up pictures of bike racks one day when I should have been working.

There are other projects that I am not involved with due to lack of time, energy, interest, money, or expertise (Harry & the Potters/Car Kulture to name two).

I'm not even sure I understand what a visionary alignment is, because I don't know what or whose visions may be aligned.

But I do know that it's interesting to hear what ideas people have, to try and make some sense of things and to try and put people together who have the time, energy, and talent to move ideas forward.

Also, I believe there have been no more than three "formal" adviser meetings and those have included discussions regarding the nuts and bolts of production. I don't even remember when the last one was.

The only thing the advisers are aligned about is producing a newspaper every two weeks and keeping the web stuff running.

And there is no visionary alignment advisory group or a visionary alignment group to advise.

[Charyn Compeau]

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