Pit Bull Ban Passes

[Hope Robbins]

No gentleman, Dogs are dogs are dogs anywhere. Just like people are people I am not that daft.

The point is to deal with the issue here in Lakewood Ohio. Again, we could start a battling thread some where else, but I would rather deal with the issues in my own back yard right now, since it effects us right now.

Ivor, again, no one is disputing the "compliance" issue here. Has it been an issue of course. It's an issue for all dogs in Lakewood not just Pits. That is kind of the point of contension here. I think all dog owners should carry insurance , just like I all car owners should car insurance. Not just the red sports car owners who might have more accidents or race more....therefore they are more dangerous, versus my mini-van. They can all cause injury, they all need to be paid for, from a stitch to an outright mauling. Is that NOT logical enough.

No problem with muzzles, if you can find one that won't kill your dog in the heat and that the Public feels safer with the dog having on? I prefer to keep my dog inside on her treadmill that way I don't have to listen to her whine, or get stoned by the villagers on the way down the street. Thank you. So Ivor that is not my issue or any other Pit Bull owners I know out here? The issue is equality for safety, all dogs, all owners, all one community.


I don't "advocate" for Pit Bulls, I am an advocate for ALL dogs. Including those that are owned by people who support the ban gentleman. Some day they will come under fire and fortunately for them I don't hold a grudge against a dog, so I am happy to help even if the owner is not on my list of favorite people. So let's clear that up while you are "digging" at advocates. If your lives are perfect and you have never had a need for advocacy in your life or the lives of someone you love ,good for you.

I have done advocacy work for years, I just added all canines / animal work recently. Mental Health Advocacy is actually my speciality just for the record in case you want to comment on that somewhere too.

What part of logic did I miss since you seem justified in pointing it out?

He posted a story on something bad in another state, I posted something good on them equally and made a point that we can waste time all night on that type of banter. But we can if you find that more "logical". I was actually trying to save you from another thread or this one from being derailed....and get us back to the subject of the actual ban. Not the good and bad doggie game all night.

[Missy Limkemann]

People keep bringing up the Fox News Story and yeah the one guy wasnt, but he is now in compliance. What about ME? (yeah I am selfish...sorry but I am) I do not have to be compliant about pit bull laws, I DONT OWN ONE!!!! I can't stress this enough.
I want to know why people are forgetting that fact. I dont know why people are ignoring I was there too, I spoke, and I was visited. Please, is George really that big of a threat?

Oh and for the pit that attacked that 3 year, read past the headlines. It was a chained dog, NOT a family dog. Probably a dog that was tied up it's whole life, never socialized, never knew what a child was, and of course it attacked. It didnt know any better. It was never tought that. I want to know who thinks a dog does not need training. You have to train every dog to do what you want it to do and be the dog you want it to be. Dogs are just not born to know right from wrong. If they were, please explain why my puppies are still having accidents. They should know outside is where to go.
If you were tied up all your life, and never knew what a human/child was, dont you think you would attack too? I know I would. Fight or flight, and that dog had no flight option. back me in a corner and I will fight. (ed, there is no laughing at that...i know you know me, but i am strong...Ok stop laughing now!! you too hope!!!)
I again think this should have waited.
Where are the dogs going to be housed? DNA tests take a few weeks (up to 8 depending on how slammed they get)
Who is going to pay for this? Are the ones that supported this ban going to start writing checks for this?

[Hope Robbins]

Not laughing at you Melissa, dynamite comes in small packages.

The whole point of that story was missed. The only part picked out as usual, which is always the problem with bias,fear, ignorance, malice, and a closed mind, and well the media. Not a surprise.

This story proves part of the issue, you are right. Crappy owners, abusive horrible people who need to be locked up and never have the ability to own a dog again in life. And the dog should have a shot at rehabilitation. Any one keeping up with the dogs rescued from Michael Vick?
The ones that survived the horror? Great dogs. One already responding to rehabilitation and up for Therapy/Service dog training. But the easy way out is always the best right? Just kill "em" , Kill "em" all. And pass a ban against all the undesirable elements in your town. I see a ghost town in the furture, with no tolerance if we start setting that precedence.

How about what really ticks me off. Where the hell was this childs parent?
Or guardian or some responsible person?

You think if people were really educated properly including a child, knowing how to be around a dog, or NOT be around a dog. Or educate parents on how to do that, heck a bigger issue is educating parents on being parents period, or humans how to be HUMANE.
Do you think if people get caught fighting dogs or abusing them horribly they get locked up for a long time.....it might help? Can we enforce the laws we have and add some education FIRST not AFTER.

[Todd Shapiro]

I don't remember how to quote previous posts but to answer Hope's question: Honestly, I am afraid of all large dogs. The only reason that I would be more afraid of "pit bulls" is because I have read on many instances that A. pit bulls have been involved in more fatal dog attacks than any other breed. B. I have been told and have read (and I honestly don't know if it is true) that "pit bulls" have locking jaw and will due more damage if they bit a human being than other breeds.

In my humble opinion I would ban all large dogs if I could. I realize that will NEVER happen so I would be happy to settle for what many feel is one of the most dangerous breeds.

And the flip side of this is I realize the ban will do little or nothing to make me feel any safer or make me any safer from dog attacks. Just like rasing the drinking age to 21 didn't stop teenagers from drinking, a "pit bull" ban isn't going to prevent some citizens to keep and improperly train their pit bulls and it won't stop any other breed of dog from biting me or anyone else.

However, if this new law stop prevents one child (or adult) from being mauled by a pit bull isn't it worth it? I am sure all animal lovers could learn to love another breed of dog as much as they love their pit bulls.

[Hope Robbins]

I don't remember how to quote previous posts but to answer Hope's question: Honestly, I am afraid of all large dogs. The only reason that I would be more afraid of "pit bulls" is because I have read on many instances that A. pit bulls have been involved in more fatal dog attacks than any other breed. B. I have been told and have read (and I honestly don't know if it is true) that "pit bulls" have locking jaw and will due more damage if they bit a human being than other breeds.

In my humble opinion I would ban all large dogs if I could. I realize that will NEVER happen so I would be happy to settle for what many feel is one of the most dangerous breeds.

And the flip side of this is I realize the ban will do little or nothing to make me feel any safer or make me any safer from dog attacks. Just like rasing the drinking age to 21 didn't stop teenagers from drinking, a "pit bull" ban isn't going to prevent some citizens to keep and improperly train their pit bulls and it won't stop any other breed of dog from biting me or anyone else.

However, if this new law stop prevents one child (or adult) from being mauled by a pit bull isn't it worth it? I am sure all animal lovers could learn to love another breed of dog as much as they love their pit bulls.

Todd,
To Quote, you can hit the quote button at top right hand side of the person's post you want to quote. Multiple quotes, you copy and past what you want, after you paste it you highlight it and hit the quote buttom on your tool bar. Hope that helps.

Thank you for your answer. I understand what you are saying and I figured there was a good reason because you were honest about stating you were afraid of dogs. Not spewing other junk. I have nothing negative to say to you because like most humans I have had fears of things myself, with respect to animals. So I am not going to force anything down your throat out of respect. However, if you are ever interested in learning about them, including the "myth" that they have locking jaws or more PSI than any other dog, happy to help. And not just because of the ban, because one less direct fear of "a type" of dog is another step to overcoming a fear that must be difficult for you in a "large" dog , dog community.

[David Anderson]

Our elected officials seem to want citizen engagement to help solve problems on certain issues but shut the door of opportunities on others. They either want citizens at the table or they don't. This is not true citizen engagement. This picking and choosing strategy creates polarized and confused citizens.

David, you may agree or disagree with the ordinance passed by Council, but I don't agree for a moment that this was a case of Council discouraging participation. The ordinance was introduced in May. At the first meeting, scores of people attended to discuss just this issue; we listened to them at length. The ordinance was referred to the public safety committee for further deliberation.

I appreciate your reply, Kevin. You must understand that, in comparison to other issues that the city touted as engagement to the degree that will or can solve problems - Lakewood's Public Safety Initiative, parks' maintenance issues and, now that I think about it, the youth initiative - a different tact was taken concerning the dog/pit ordinance.

For clarification, I did not write that this is a "case of council discouraging participation" as you put it. However, participation does seem to have been limited, by and large, to hearings.

I'm not suggesting that Council punt all the tough issues to public/private committees or turn Lakewood into a referendum city. It just seems to me that a different approach is being taken on this issue as compared to the Public Safety Initiative, parks' maintenance and the youth initiative. How certain issues are considered for one approach versus another seems curious to me and, apparently, others as well. (To add to your metaphor, what strike zone is being used to call the balls and strikes?)

Perhaps a more thorough explanation of and the expectations concerning the associated Advisory Board is in order.

Finally, you ended by writing that "Observation Deck or not, we did not make this call without ample observation." Are you suggesting, as others on this deck have recently, that the comments against the ordinance are somewhat limited to this thread and recent hearings and that the vast majority of citizens are in favor of Council's actions on this matter?

We're neighbors, Kevin, and you know that I am not trying to put you on the spot. I'm just trying to continue the dialogue and get to a better place than I'm reading on this thread.

[Missy Limkemann]

Todd....I am extending a personal invite to my house so you can meet some of the best large breeds out there. (or anyone that wants to come over and meet some puppies, see Batman etc) My lab for one. She is 104 pounds and probably the weirdest dog you will meet. She will insist you throw her ball to her at least 100 times and bark at you when she drops it at your feet. I will show you that large dogs are awesome (ok so they shed more but OMG they are the best) Then I will have you meet Batman and I promise you will want to take him home. Then you can meet Snoopy and you will start a ban on beagles. LOL. Then comes George. You will chance your mind on dogs, you will run from the tiny little crapper dogs. LOL.

People keep asking this "Well there are other breeds" well its like this. You drive a Honda, it dies, or crashes whatever. You need another car. You loved your Honda (i drive a dodge so again any car you want), your honda was good to you, do you go out and get another honda or go for the toyota.
I had a lab named King. Sadly he passed on at 1 years old. If you notice, I have another lab. When she passes, I will again get another lab. I love them, it is my breed of choice. I have been mauled by a lab, had the tip of my finger put back on due to a lab mauling. Saw the plastic surgeon due to a lab mauling, and you can bet your bottom dollar, I will continue to get labs. They are my choice. Same with pits. These dogs are great. They are loyal, loving and wonderful. Owners love them, love the breed, see the breed for the good they have in them, and will want to get another one when their beloved passes to the "rainbow bridge"....no matter what breed.

[Kevin Butler]

David, I'm suggesting that hosting and attending meeting after meeting is often all we can give to one particular issue, particularly when we are not full-time councilmembers and we have significant additional responsibilities on behalf of our constituents and our clients or employers.

Councilmembers simply cannot be drawn into every single conversation, held in the press, online, and at city hall, just because a debate is occurring there. To the extent I read your words this way, I disagree with the assessment that one should infer from council's lack of participation on the Observation Deck we were somehow eschewing comment. In fact, many of the posters here on the Observation Deck advocated during those hearings. I am deeply respectful of them.

You asked whether I believe "the comments against the ordinance are somewhat limited to this thread and recent hearings and that the vast majority of citizens are in favor of Council's actions on this matter." I don't know the answer to that.

What I can say is that I received hundreds of oral and written communications both for and against the original proposed ordinance, certainly many more against than for. Quite a few were from pit bull advocates from across Ohio and even the United States; many were website-driven form letters.

I simply disagreed with them.

Depending on the outcome of our vote, those on each side of the debate could very easily have claimed Council sold out -- the anti-BSL advocates on the one hand, alleging we opted to fuel mass hysteria, to find a way to manifest our "pure ignorance"; the anti-pit bull advocates on the other, alleging we caved to a small but vocal minority of pie-in-the-sky, irrational dog lovers who simply cannot see danger in some of these animals. Neither is true.

The fact is, after considering everything put before us in an intense two-month period of debate, my colleagues and I made substantial revisions to the ordinance and then took a vote. I feel qualified to say we did not take the responsibility lightly.

[Bryan Schwegler]

David, I'm suggesting that hosting and attending meeting after meeting is often all we can give to one particular issue, particularly when we are not full-time councilmembers and we have significant additional responsibilities on behalf of our constituents and our clients or employers.

Councilmembers simply cannot be drawn into every single conversation, held in the press, online, and at city hall, just because a debate is occurring there. To the extent I read your words this way, I disagree with the assessment that one should infer from council's lack of participation on the Observation Deck we were somehow eschewing comment.

That's a very valid point Kevin. I think we often forget that we don't have a full-time council. All of you have other responsibilities as well as a myriad of ways that you reach out to your constituents, the Deck is just one of them.

I'm grateful for the conversations that you and your colleagues are able to participate in here, especially for those of us that prefer this medium of exchange.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Kevin

I appreciate you jumping in here as always. i understand many of the things you have said. However I am willing to bet that there is not a better way to reach out to the community that through the Lakewood Observer.

I would put our ability to reach and engage the community as simply the best available in the city. Our page views and hits are nearly 500% higher than any other format. The paper reaches 3/4 of the homes and people in Lakewood. All for no cost to the city, civic groups and council.

You do not have to register to read the deck in its entirety, so this project stands alone, as the public "town square." As you well know, anything council gives us is printed in the paper in its entirety as well. No cost to the city or the taxpayers. I have to think the only other way to reach as many residents is through the water bill.

That said I do understand the trap, council and other officials fall into getting into discussions. Some people can drag them on for ever. I would hope that that problem along with others is offset by the Deck using REAL NAMES. When the Deck was set up I spoke with every member of council, and EVERYONE promised, if real names were used, they would take part. I do not think you were on council at that time. Still you and your wife, Ed FitzGerald, Mike Dever and others do jump in when time allows and for that we are all thankful.

As for the law. Considering the heat, the passion on all sides, and the amount of other work to be done. I think council came up with a far compromise, that allows for changes down the road as information becomes available.

No dog needs to be put down, no one needs to move, and we have slowed any growth of what some consider a potential problem. I hope as time passes, people appreciate the work and the compromise.

As always thank you for your time on the deck, on council, and the time you and your wife Catherine give to this city.

Ward 1 rules!


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[stephen davis]

Ward 1 rules!

Sorry, Jim. Ward 3 rules! Ward 1 drools.


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[Missy Limkemann]

Ward 3 Rocks!!!!!

[David Anderson]

Councilmembers simply cannot be drawn into every single conversation, held in the press, online, and at city hall, just because a debate is occurring there. To the extent I read your words this way, I disagree with the assessment that one should infer from council's lack of participation on the Observation Deck we were somehow eschewing comment. In fact, many of the posters here on the Observation Deck advocated during those hearings. I am deeply respectful of them.

Kevin -

My question is why some tough issues - crime, playgrounds/parks, youth initiative - are deemed worthy of short- to long-term public/citizen partnerships that allow folks to be at the table helping to solve the problem while other issues are dealt with via hearings, councilmember individual research and "hundreds of oral and written communication?"

The comment about "council's lack of participation on the OD" is your characterization, not mine. Not once have I offered any opinion regarding Council's participation on the OD.

Furthermore, others have suggested that council took the responsibility regarding this vote lightly. I do not agree and feel council did take this issue seriously. However, a different, more traditional, tact was chosen and I stand by my question in paragraph one.

Lastly, for you to come on the OD and further explain you position is deeply appreciated but there is no way anyone can expect you to answer all of the questions surrounding this issue in one or a few posts.

Perhaps the LO would be interested in an article where I, an objective observer not directly impacted by this ordinance either way, interview the Ward 1 Councilman for further insight.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Perhaps the LO would be interested in an article where I, an objective observer not directly impacted by this ordinance either way, interview the Ward 1 Councilman for further insight.

David


Of course the LO is interested. One look at out mission statement would underline that.

Our goal is very simple, and straightforward. "To learn more about this city than anyone has every understood about their city before." This would mean that the LO is interested in getting everyone's view out, and understood and discussed.

When Lakewood City Council gave me the latest resolution one comment, by Michael Dever made me very proud. To paraphrase "Jim has gone out of his way at great personal expense to create the fair and equal discussion. He has continuously reached out for views that are not the same of his and even contradict his own thoughts and belief. For I know that he feels the discussion is important.

From the very start the LO has encouraged ALL LAKEWOOD RESIDENTS to share their views, and stories.

David, let me know how we can help you get your views out. While the Lakewood Observer is a part time hobby, as I, like everyone at the LO receives no financial reward, and I like others have other real jobs that take me away, Lakewood, living in Lakewood, and making Lakewood better for all is my passion. To be honest that is the same for all that take part in the Lakewood Observer project.

All of us are trying to move the city forward, in a way that is beneficial to the majority, and for the long term as well as the short term.

Will talk with you later today.


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[Missy Limkemann]

Can I put an article in about All Dogs Heaven and Batman too? I can talk about my puppy mill survivor puppies I have now in rescue (they are awesome and I love them) and the one dog who was so abused she is afraid of life. Then I can talk about saving Batman and his story. I can talk about what a ban means to me as a person who doesnt own a pit but who works in rescue of all dogs.
Or if anyone wants to "interview" me since I suck at writing I can do that too. LOL. I was on my school's newspaper (a million and 5 years ago) but I mostly did poems, art work and kept scores of the wrestling team.