Pit Bull Ban Passes

[Ed Dickson]

Ivor,

I work in the field and am a Certified Professional Dog Trainer. I am connected to many of the best known names around the country that have a heck of a lot more experience than me. With that being said, I challenge you to find a single dog expert anywhere that thinks this sort of thing is a good idea. I have yet to find one.
Also, NONE of the council members I spoke to seemed to think this is what the residents wanted. As a matter of fact, I was told by some that it was seriously tilted the other way.
Finally, if you would like to talk about other issues in Lakewood, by all means, start a thread. This is a big deal and therefore is getting the bulk of the attention.

MOre of my two cents,
Ed

[Stephanie Lane]

Don't hate the council for it, because they represent the people. If the majority is for the ban then they did what was asked because it's a democracy.

Then it should be put to a vote, rather than speculate after the fact whether the law was ever supported by the majority in the first place.

[Donald Farris]

Hi,
Ivor, as I understand it, the Council voted to "grandfather" in existing pit bulls. So, help me understand, how that will get rid if those 2 pit bulls in your neighbors back yard?

[Mike Deneen]

I like both Ivor and Frank. Both have been outstanding Lakewood citizens that have contributed a great deal of time and talent to this city.

However, on this issue, they are incredibly off base.

This pit bull vote was a huge mistake and a blight on the record of all who supported it.

Sadly, I fear that Lakewood is heading down a very grim path. This issue is symptomatic of many troubling attitudes and trends. For the first time in 25 years, I am embarrassed of our town and very doubtful of its future.

[Hope Robbins]

I have spent the last two hours looking up stats for you Ryan. Before I am old and grey I will get them to you. And no I am not mad at you for bringing it up. Because I face it everyday and have for sometime for more reasons than just this, but that is another thread entirely.


Or if you were at the meeting, um were you at any of them, since you are in this thread? You would have seen your neighbors who spoke out against this ban, one of which I happen to be, sitting right next to you. Yep that was me in the suit, works for a Law Firm, yep councilman Butler called me up by name right in the middle of it all, um cause I am an old friend of his who used to work with him, so he could chat about a nice email before the meeting, that was sent by our CAO group president to clear up some confusion?

I am by the way a 38 year old , full time working mother of 3 wonderful boys, married for 14 years to the same wonderful guy, home owner, registered voter, Caucasion, tax paying, writer, photographer, bunny lover and rescuer, Bulldog owning, upper middled classed, never been in prison, or jail, female?

Do you think I am one of these "undesirables" who should be driven out of this city?

The fact of the matter is if you took just the small census based on those I work with in my normal job, CAO and my neighbors, you would find the average owner is about the same majority. Caucasion, female between 25-40 years old, middle to upper classed income, usually with kids who works, owns a home or a business here, has a degree or well a pretty good education, and loves her community well except this issue.....

Sorry but I hate stereo-types!

Know why you don't know me or my dog in a "good light" because the dogs who are our family pets in this community don't get face time like the ones who die after a dog fight, or the ones found chained and abused in the basement of a drug dealers house, or owned by angry owners who's hearts are in the right place but oops forgot to cover their own butt before they spoke out.... I was NOT one of them. Nope no dirt on me why are they not hounding me? I have been on the news, on the radio all dang day...today... Must be one of the 5 that is in compliance...or maybe they are saving something special up just for me? I dunno. Don't care either. Cause if I missed something it will be made right, and it's because I care to be a good example of a good dog owner and considerate of those who don't love them around me.

How would you know right anything good about these dogs??? You also don't hear much about the K9 officers, Therapy dogs, or I don't know for the 5th time, Dakota who is a Search and Rescue Pit Bull who helped us look for Laci Peterson? They don't make good enough press. That is why you don't know us, you don't hear about the good dogs, or know I am or anything about my dog.

This is what I found on another sister site that fights this ignorance in our communities and I totally agree.

I am not perfect, any more than you all are. I have made mistakes, yes even with my dog, but I am being responsible and I made it right and I am doing my best to be a good example of what a typical yes majority Pit Bull or Pit Bull mix owner is in Lakewood ,Ryan.


The Psychology Behind Stereotypes
Let's briefly talk about "confirmation bias". In psychology, confirmation bias is the process by which a person forms a theory and then searches for things that prove their theory while ignoring things that are contradictory. This is how stereotypes form and grow. The seed is planted, and each event that confirms the stereotype causes it to grow, while events that refute the stereotype are minimized or rejected. We can apply confirmation bias to the stereotypes of pit bull and pit bull owner. Events which confirm that a pit bull is a killing machine are counted and recalled over and over, while hundreds of thousands of normal, sweet, friendly pit bulls are completely ignored and events involving a heroic pit bull are fudged a little (perhaps the breed is not mentioned). Similarly, in the news, connections are frequently made between drug dealers and pit bulls, while responsible pit bull owners don't make the news at all.

The second element to consider is familiarity. Dr. Aaron Beck, in his book "Prisoners of Hate", suggests that hatred and violence toward others stems in part from a lack of familiarity, which results in a dehumanizing effect. The minority group is perceived as "outsiders", and as such it is considered acceptable for the majority to marginalize them and strip them of their rights. People who are unfamiliar with pit bull owners are reacting to the stereotype, not reality. Some individuals' only exposure to pit bull owners has been in a negative sense - perhaps they live near an irresponsible pit bull owner or were bitten by a pit bull. These individuals have strong confirmation bias and are very difficult to persuade that what they are familiar with is neither normal nor acceptable among responsible pit bull owners. On the other hand, individuals who have pleasant, normal experiences with responsible pit bull owners come to realize that pit bull owners are human beings just like them. It is vital that responsible pit bull owners do everything they can to foster familiarity and acceptance through demonstration of model behavior and actions which humanize them in the eyes of the majority group (non-pit bull owners).

As a responsible pit bull owner and a member of the pit bull owning community, it is up to you to combat the stereotype. If you do not rise above the stereotype, you are adding weight to the arguments of those who want to ban the breed-type (and, in the process, pit bull owners). You can fight the stereotype in many ways, through both words and deeds.

Ivan,
All I can do tell you I am sorry for your troubles. And if I could take the dogs, and make them good upstanding citizens I would. Their owners are not the model we want to stand for or tolerate here either.

Sadly, I am not allowed to help with them. I can't rescue them, I can't rehabilitate them, I can't do anything but hope to educate those here who want to be educated, who want to be responsible dog owners, and who care about their neighbors concerns. I am not your neighbor or you would be talking to me over the fence and petting Powder saying wow I never knew these dogs were so sweet and never once had a concern for your safety or lost a night of sleep from her barking, cleaning up her mess out of your lawn, or running loose attacking people. Never.

[Ryan Salo]

I did not say that ALL pit bull owners are "undesirables", just some.

Like Ivor's neighbors, which will prob not be grandfathered in because I bet they are not "in compliance" nor will they get "in compliance" in the next 90 days.

This could be used as a tool for the police department to use at their discretion.

I do believe in the right for things to go to ballot, I have collected signatures many many times for different issues. I will sign your petition. I may still vote for the ban, but I do believe in certain instances a vote of the people is very appropriate and sometimes very revealing.

[Ryan Salo]

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statist ... kelytobite

A 20 year study showed that out of 228 breed known deaths due to bites, pit bull types were to blame 76 times, the highest number, second to rottweilers at 44.

I guess that is my concern, you can prove that any dog can bite, and you can prove that some or maybe most pitbulls are friendly, but it sure seems like certain dogs run a higher risk of killing.

If my kid is going to get bit walking, I sure don't want it to be by a pit-bull or a rottweiler.

[Hope Robbins]

Ryan,
I know you didn't say all. I also have no malice towards your post.
Actually I am glad you brought it up, because sadly it is a part of the reason many people feel like they do. I am glad you brought it up because I am happy to speak to it. It is part of the education process.

I don't want my children bitten by any dog. But if we go where you just went, lets ban all big dogs then? But then the bites will still come from irresponsible "small" dog owners. That is not the issue.

I want the same thing you want. Safety from any dog in this community that can cause injury big or small. Or destruction to my property, bark all night, ruin my grass, or strike fear in the hearts of my kids.

So we know any dog can do any of those things. What do we do?
We do what we have failed at all along. Educate, make responsible even the smallest of infractions, enforce it, equally.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

In regards to the other post. Nice to meet you Ryan. I am Hope I am your neighbor, my commitment to this city is to educate, do the best I possibly can to be a considerate and responsible dog owner. I also commit to make sure everyone does it, just like I have to. Because it's the right thing to do. I won't support BSL or Bans ever. I will fight this within the letter of the law. I will see you soon, and happy to have you sign a petition yah or ney.

[Anne Steiner]

Thank You council for passing this law.

Also a Thank You to resposible pit bull owners, who follow the law. Since this issue has been raised, I have seen several owners walking their dogs with muzzles.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Mike,
You got it all wrong. It's not about my photos, it's about having four threads dedicated to the same bickering and everything positive that's going on the city taking the back burner.

I love dogs, don't get me wrong. I even donated some of my photos to be auctioned off for the dog park when it was just getting started. Remember that? I'm all for people walking their dogs, and believe that (in most cases) with training they can be taught to behave and not attack. But look at who GENERALLY owns pit bulls around Cleveland and you'll find that they A) can't afford training, B) don't have time for taking their dog to training, and C) don't really care about their dogs. How do I come to that conclusion? Look at the kids they're raising and how much trouble they're making!

Second, I have a hard time believing that council and the mayor sat around one day and thought "hey I've got an idea, lets ban pit bulls!". They knew that it would be controversial and they still implemented it so I can bet that something had to influence their decision to even think of the ban to begin with.

Ed, of course I won't find a dog expert that thinks this is a good idea because they're in service for dogs! That's like finding a psychologist who thinks the only way out of depression is to commit suicide. Or finding an activist who believes the opposite of what he/she is campaigning for. You just won't find it.

Ryan,
I love your idea about putting this issue on a ballot. I think that's what should have occurred to begin with. That way there's no arguing or bickering about it afterwards because there's no going back and everyone who decided to wake up and use their power of a vote had a say in it.

Mr. Farris, having said the above about putting the ban on the ballot, I hope we don't need another conversation about who or what to vote for over the phone. Who knows, if that "mean guy" you told me not to vote for would've stayed in office, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I think the solution to this would be putting the issue on the ballot. But now that the council has voted and everyone's made a fool of themselves, it's going to be impossible to reverse this mess.

I say give dogs two strikes. ALL dogs. After they've ripped off two limbs, or faces, or taken one life, you ban them from the city.

I guess if a dog rips off one kids face, you can teach them not to do it again with plenty of bacon bits...but if a socialized human being commits a crime, they will always have a tendency to do it again?

If we were banning ex-killers from Lakewood I'm sure this conversation would be reversed. But since we're talking about dogs, it's not.

If the only thing that pit bull owners have to do is walk their pit bulls with muzzles to be following the law, then what's the big deal? I've seen owners walk german sheppards with muzzles by choice before and I don't see what the uproar is about. If I was walking an animal that had a tendency to attack strangers who came to close, I'd walk it with a muzzle regardless of what the law said. Maybe I'm just willing to give up some of my freedoms and the dogs freedoms for the sake of making my neighborhood safer.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Oh another thing.

Ed, if your statement is true about the majority of council members feeling that their wards were tilted the other way on this issue, then shame on the Council, the Mayor and everyone involved with passing this law.

In a democracy, the people should have a say.

Put the issue on a ballot and let it play out. Don't try to strip residents from their voices because it will just make them yell louder and bring bigger pitchforks.

[Jim O'Bryan]

In a democracy, the people should have a say.

Put the issue on a ballot and let it play out. Don't try to strip residents from their voices because it will just make them yell louder and bring bigger pitchforks.

Ivor

First, America is not a true democracy. But we can talk about that another time.

I would think that if this was put to a public vote it would end the same or worse. Let's be honest, Vote FOR MORE PIT BULLS, or LESS is not a hard one to figure out.

However, council, and other elected officials are voted in because people believe they will represent their ideas and values. Not each and every person's vote each time.

Your voice becomes important and valuable around election time.

I see this as a strictly political vote. Would you want to run for re-election as the PRO-PITBULL Candidate? This is what makes Mary Louise Madigan's dissenting vote even more heroic.

What does bother me is that it seems once again council had this plan, then studied it to get the answer they wanted. Just once it would be nice to see a study done without the "right ending" written at the beginning.

.

[Ed Dickson]

Ivor,

My statement is true. Make of it what you will. I sure have. Second, to refute your statement to me that of course the experts would agree. Go back and read your previous post where you said you could find experts on both sides of the issue. Which is it my friend? You can't have it both ways.

Jim,

What you have just stated is the heart of the problem to me. You'll have a hard time convincing me that this wasn't something that was pre-determined. I'll give the council members the chance to do it as I plan to follow up with them. The standard answer that I received from each of them was "I haven't decided where I satnd on the issue." Every one of them said the same thing in the same way. This isn't about Pit bulls to me. It's about what's right or wrong for the city in which I live. The evidence that these type of measures don't accomplish anything and actually cost taxpayers money in the long run is stunning. Council had all this evidence in it's hands and still decided to go through it. If a problem exists (and I'm not saying that it doesn't) maybe Lakewood could have learned from others and tried a different route. They sure wouldn't have had a problem finding people to help implement something new. This is a great community of people that will pull together and help solve problems. That wasn't even given the opportunity. That's what makes this so sad.

Ed

[Valerie Molinski]

Mr. Murtaugh, thanks for posting.

Brad,
I'm sure you can find "dog expert" opinions that support both sides of the argument. Just like you can find "expert" opinion for/against the Iraq war, or abortion, or gay marriage, it goes on.

Bottom line is that those two pitbulls behind my house that wanted to jump over the fence and rip my face off aren't welcome in this city anymore. No longer will I, or my family, be scared to sit peacefully in our back yard because we don't have to fear those monsters.

I bet if we did a survey of every resident of the city, the results would be so lob-sided for the ban that the pitbull owners would cry that it's not true.

That's the feeling I'm getting from residents I have spoken to about this and maybe it's just reality that the majority of Lakewood residents feel unsafe with pitbulls in the city.

Don't hate the council for it, because they represent the people. If the majority is for the ban then they did what was asked because it's a democracy. And no, they didn't forget about the present pitbull owners either because obviously they're not scooping up all the pitbulls in the city and putting them in shelters.

Yeah, dog owners lose their personal freedom of having a pitbull but just like when the nation's safety is a concern we citizens lose some rights and freedoms, when the majority of the city feels unsafe with pitbulls in the city, it's either the pitbulls or the rest of the residents. I don't like my phone being tapped into by the government and being harassed every time I go through an airport because I have my right to my personal space, but if it saves lives and makes us all safer at the end of the day, I guess I just shut up and live with it.

I just hate seeing four threads going on simultaneously with the same rants and complaints. There are other things going on in the city too, and they're being pushed further down the forum because threads are brought back to life and they all contain the same thing. Keep it simple, folks!

Dog experts on both side? No you cannot find them. You WILL not find them. Because anyone that works with these dogs on a consistent basis will refute all of the 'good reasons' this ban was passed. Was the advice of so many local vets NOT ENOUGH for you? I don't get why so many experts coould be ignored because you could 'probably' find someone posting on Wiki that these dogs are killing machines. Please.

And it doesnt save lives and make us all safer at the end of the day. That has been the point on all these threads. It's a perceived safety... but whatever works for the 'majority', I guess. And comparing people who hijack planes with dogs? Ridiculous at best.

We must be hanging with different majorities, because the bulk of people I have spoken to about this were NOT for the ban. Believe what you want, but I still cannot be convinced that the majority of this city supported this.

[Todd Shapiro]

I agree with all the people who say that if the Pit Bull ban was put to a vote, it would pass in a landslide. This is another case where a strong, well-spoken, and well-informed minority attempted to thwart the will of the majority. I hope that none of the people who have implied they would leave Lakewood if this ban was put in place actually follow through on this threat. However, I know that if someone who owned a pit bull moved next door to me, I would be moving into a new house at the end of that month. That's how afraid myself, and I am sure others in the community are of these animals.

I kept my comments to myself during this whole battle because I realize I am not an animal lover nor do I have children (who are most likely to be attacked by dogs). I thank the council for passing this ban to make the residents of Lakewood safer (and before someone tosses out a bunch stats or quotes from a study perception is reality and there are many people like myself who are terrified of these animals).

I hope that the state of Ohio passes a statewide ban on pit bulls in short order and thereby takes the pressure off of city councils across the state.