What is the biggest problem facing this city over the next...
12 months...
3 years...
5 years...
10 years...
20 years?
Visionary Alignment: Question 2
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Jim O'Bryan
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Visionary Alignment: Question 2
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Doesn't matter about 10-20 years, because one problem needs to be solved immediately.
One way or the other, there has to be some way to relieve the tax burden on individuals.
I know a bunch of folks wrote here last week about assessments and said, " I know I'm not paying nearly enough in taxes, please give me the opportunity to pay some more." But common sense tells you those folks are in the minority.
The reality is that you will pay less than half in taxes for the same value of property in Avon Lake than in Lakewood.
That's because Lakewood has no business activity of any scale.
Now, Mr. Call may want to make teachers work for less, and you may want to cut back on city services, but even spending curbs will only take you so far. You can't keep Lakewood competitive with services on a shoestring budget. Cheaping out on teachers, cops, and building inspectors will only decrease the quality of life in the city.
In short, Lakewood is just too big to be exclusively a bedroom community, and until there is some influx of busienss and payroll, the city's finances, and thus its liveability, are going to suffer.
Someone has told our mayor the city can survive without economic activity. And incredibly, he seems to have bought it, which may make him the only mayor in the world who ISN'T looking for business to move into his town. Amazing. If he is only reading emails from people who are just delighted about their new assessments, someone is screening what gets through to him (GWB, Lakewood-style?)
You and I disagree on this point. But you, like Mr.Foran, Mr.Endress and others, LIKE paying taxes. That's just weird.
One way or the other, there has to be some way to relieve the tax burden on individuals.
I know a bunch of folks wrote here last week about assessments and said, " I know I'm not paying nearly enough in taxes, please give me the opportunity to pay some more." But common sense tells you those folks are in the minority.
The reality is that you will pay less than half in taxes for the same value of property in Avon Lake than in Lakewood.
That's because Lakewood has no business activity of any scale.
Now, Mr. Call may want to make teachers work for less, and you may want to cut back on city services, but even spending curbs will only take you so far. You can't keep Lakewood competitive with services on a shoestring budget. Cheaping out on teachers, cops, and building inspectors will only decrease the quality of life in the city.
In short, Lakewood is just too big to be exclusively a bedroom community, and until there is some influx of busienss and payroll, the city's finances, and thus its liveability, are going to suffer.
Someone has told our mayor the city can survive without economic activity. And incredibly, he seems to have bought it, which may make him the only mayor in the world who ISN'T looking for business to move into his town. Amazing. If he is only reading emails from people who are just delighted about their new assessments, someone is screening what gets through to him (GWB, Lakewood-style?)
You and I disagree on this point. But you, like Mr.Foran, Mr.Endress and others, LIKE paying taxes. That's just weird.
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
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Grace O'Malley
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Joan wrote:
That's a bit of an exaggeration, Joan.
According to the Cuyahoga County Auditors office, Lakewood property tax burden as a percentage of market value is 2.62%
According to the Lorain county Auditor, Avon Lake tax rates are 1.65% of market value and Avon is 1.69%. Those rates are for 2005 taxes collected in 2006 and may be subject to change.
The point is, yes, you pay less in property tax in Avon Lake, but not half. You also have to cosider what you get for your money. Most of the people I know in AL, including a close relative, say the services don't compare to what I have in Lakewood. Many have no sidewalks and have flooded basements every time it rains.
I also think you are mischaracterizing the people who you say "like" paying high taxes. The people who posted are not saying that at all. What Jay and some of the others really said was that they understand it costs money to offer city services and run the schools and that they are willing to pay a fair share to see that we continue to have good services and schools.
The reality is that you will pay less than half in taxes for the same value of property in Avon Lake than in Lakewood.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, Joan.
According to the Cuyahoga County Auditors office, Lakewood property tax burden as a percentage of market value is 2.62%
According to the Lorain county Auditor, Avon Lake tax rates are 1.65% of market value and Avon is 1.69%. Those rates are for 2005 taxes collected in 2006 and may be subject to change.
The point is, yes, you pay less in property tax in Avon Lake, but not half. You also have to cosider what you get for your money. Most of the people I know in AL, including a close relative, say the services don't compare to what I have in Lakewood. Many have no sidewalks and have flooded basements every time it rains.
I also think you are mischaracterizing the people who you say "like" paying high taxes. The people who posted are not saying that at all. What Jay and some of the others really said was that they understand it costs money to offer city services and run the schools and that they are willing to pay a fair share to see that we continue to have good services and schools.
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Joan Roberts
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- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Grace, please don't everything I say so seriously.
I was teasing Mr. O and Mr. Endress a little.
The reality behind it is that most people chafe at paying ever higher taxes, and at some point many people reach a breaking point. I know three people who have started actively looking outside Lakewood since their new assessments arrived, particularly since they know the schools will be coming back with Bond issue II next year. Anecodtal maybe, but no more anecdotal than believing Mr.Foran and Mr.Endress represent all of average Lakewood,
Mr. Foran himself noted that he sold a $500,000+ house in California before moving to Lakewood. That puts him in a situation unlike most average Lakewoodites (at least the ones I know).
And if we're playing dueling anecodotes, I was talking to a friend who moved from Lakewood to another city and then moved back to the Cleveland area, but this time to Medina. He missed the bars, she missed walking to the antque shops. But when I asked if they would ever consider moving back, the answer was, "Oh, God, no." Gotta ask yourself why.
As to the lack of services in Avon Lake, that's the second reality. We can sniff and huff and tsk-tsk all we want, but I'm pretty sure that if you ran the numbers and the deed transfers, you'd see a lot more folks are moving from Lakewood to Avon Lake than vice versa. Evidently there is something there that keeps them in a city with no sidewalks (have you ever been to Avon Lake? Every community I have seen has sidewalks) and flooded basements (as if that never happens in Lakewood). Lower taxes aren't the only thing, to be sure, but they certainly contribute to the overall picture.
The fact remains, and you cant rationalize it away, that to maintain a quality school system and city services with no economic base, Lakewood places an ever greater burden on its individual residents. The fact that there has only been one tax "revolt" in the past 20 years speaks highly of the residents here. But there is no doubt the tax burden has taken its toll.
I was teasing Mr. O and Mr. Endress a little.
The reality behind it is that most people chafe at paying ever higher taxes, and at some point many people reach a breaking point. I know three people who have started actively looking outside Lakewood since their new assessments arrived, particularly since they know the schools will be coming back with Bond issue II next year. Anecodtal maybe, but no more anecdotal than believing Mr.Foran and Mr.Endress represent all of average Lakewood,
Mr. Foran himself noted that he sold a $500,000+ house in California before moving to Lakewood. That puts him in a situation unlike most average Lakewoodites (at least the ones I know).
And if we're playing dueling anecodotes, I was talking to a friend who moved from Lakewood to another city and then moved back to the Cleveland area, but this time to Medina. He missed the bars, she missed walking to the antque shops. But when I asked if they would ever consider moving back, the answer was, "Oh, God, no." Gotta ask yourself why.
As to the lack of services in Avon Lake, that's the second reality. We can sniff and huff and tsk-tsk all we want, but I'm pretty sure that if you ran the numbers and the deed transfers, you'd see a lot more folks are moving from Lakewood to Avon Lake than vice versa. Evidently there is something there that keeps them in a city with no sidewalks (have you ever been to Avon Lake? Every community I have seen has sidewalks) and flooded basements (as if that never happens in Lakewood). Lower taxes aren't the only thing, to be sure, but they certainly contribute to the overall picture.
The fact remains, and you cant rationalize it away, that to maintain a quality school system and city services with no economic base, Lakewood places an ever greater burden on its individual residents. The fact that there has only been one tax "revolt" in the past 20 years speaks highly of the residents here. But there is no doubt the tax burden has taken its toll.
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
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Charyn Compeau
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Joan Roberts
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- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
First of all, it's good to see you back, Charyn.
Your points are well taken as always. There is though, a huge difference between the income and property taxes, and while the income tax tends to steam people, it's the property tax that's more likely to drive people away.
Here's an illustration.
I have a single female friend whose appraisal went up 25%. That means her taxes are going up $1200 a year. This is a middle manager, not someone in the income stratosphere. After the next levy/bond issue her property tax will equal her mortgage. To me, that's the "red zone". As an empty nester, she is likely to sell out and leave the city soon.
Or put it another way. To pay an extra $1200 in income tax, you will need to see a $90,000 jump in your income. After the next levy/bond issue her property tax will equal her mortgage. LHS could have a 100% Ivy League acceptance rate, that just can't go on.
I agree about the leadership. I believe a big part of leadership is realism, realism about the current situation and realism about the solution. I worry when the mayor talks about the emails he gets from people enraptured about higher appraisals (heck, HE already blew his tax issue, he doesn't have to worry the bond issue passing, maybe misery loves company).
It's all part of the same package. Happy talk and megadoses of Kool-Aid alone won't fix it.
Your points are well taken as always. There is though, a huge difference between the income and property taxes, and while the income tax tends to steam people, it's the property tax that's more likely to drive people away.
Here's an illustration.
I have a single female friend whose appraisal went up 25%. That means her taxes are going up $1200 a year. This is a middle manager, not someone in the income stratosphere. After the next levy/bond issue her property tax will equal her mortgage. To me, that's the "red zone". As an empty nester, she is likely to sell out and leave the city soon.
Or put it another way. To pay an extra $1200 in income tax, you will need to see a $90,000 jump in your income. After the next levy/bond issue her property tax will equal her mortgage. LHS could have a 100% Ivy League acceptance rate, that just can't go on.
I agree about the leadership. I believe a big part of leadership is realism, realism about the current situation and realism about the solution. I worry when the mayor talks about the emails he gets from people enraptured about higher appraisals (heck, HE already blew his tax issue, he doesn't have to worry the bond issue passing, maybe misery loves company).
It's all part of the same package. Happy talk and megadoses of Kool-Aid alone won't fix it.
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
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Grace O'Malley
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Joan
I hope you aren't assuming that a 25% increase in TAXABLE VALUE equates with a 25% increase in your TAXES. It isn't so. Due to the way taxes are calculated and school millage collected, the actual increase in your tax bill will be much less than 25%.
However, I do understand and appreciate that you keep talking about how the tax increases affect people. I'm particularly concerned about low and middle income homeowners that find it difficult to keep coming up with more cash for house taxes while paying more at the pump and to the gas company. It's a serious problem.
I hope you aren't assuming that a 25% increase in TAXABLE VALUE equates with a 25% increase in your TAXES. It isn't so. Due to the way taxes are calculated and school millage collected, the actual increase in your tax bill will be much less than 25%.
However, I do understand and appreciate that you keep talking about how the tax increases affect people. I'm particularly concerned about low and middle income homeowners that find it difficult to keep coming up with more cash for house taxes while paying more at the pump and to the gas company. It's a serious problem.
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Charyn Compeau
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Jim O'Bryan
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Could you gals keep to the thread topic?
High taxes are the BIGGEST Problem?
!
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High taxes are the BIGGEST Problem?
!
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Lynn Farris
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:24 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
- Contact:
12 months... I'm not so worried about Lakewood in the next 12 months. I think we could use some good financial planning. Fitzgerald has often suggested 0 base budgeting - and on that point we agree. And I would like to see a good strategic plan be started that laid out Lakewood's Future for the next 3,5 10 and 20 years. Ryan, Mary Louise, Nicki, Kevin and I believe even Ed championed that - but it got us as far as the Charter Reveiw did. We need to get some of our Creative Can do people into positions of Power. And then convince them they can use that power.
3 years...We don't have a plan while other cities do. The US continues to outsource and Cleveland the place where the jobs used to be continues to be the poorest city in America. Wow! The economy is going down the tubes and as jobs leave, the politicians rather than reduce costs up property tax and income tax even more. The few people that are left have to leave. Maybe a few cities with plans survive. Those cities with Creative People who think outside of the standard view.
5 years... The problems of year 3 grow worse unless we look creatively at our problems. The US continues to fight in the Middle East and our energy costs are through the roof. What to do? Raise taxes - we don't have a plan.
10 years... Has Global Warming started? The schools are effected by both the energy costs and the number of defaults on property tax - which few people can afford any more - does the State take over? Has anyone come up with a plan yet?
20 years? I can't think that far off.
So Jim, what do I think the problems are:
1) No comprehensive planning. Okay, I'm prejudice but I want to see a plan to address sustainable energy - which I see will be a major problem in the future. Wind, Solar, Geothermal a combination. Lets start investigating. This could mean jobs, (big time industry) as well as a solution to Global Warming and our reliance on the Middle East an unstable area for fossil fuel.
While we are addressing that plan we should think about ways to grow our city - I really like the Pennisula idea. Lake front property is always the most desirable and we can make it. Not every city has that potential.
2) Budgeting - We need to find ways to work smarter not harder. Can there be ways to work together to save money? I think a task force on this with everything on the table would be great.
3) Creativity - The administration needs to be open to new ideas no matter who comes forward with them. We need to grow in a state that is shrinking next to a city that is the poorest in the US. Not an easy challenge. But I think a city who has a leader that thinks up a citizen's written newspaper is up to the challenge. We have a city full of creative people - we need to nurture them not turn them off to the extent that they go to other cities or states.
While I totally agree that taxes are waaay out of line - in Lakewood and in Ohio - I think they are a symptom of the problem of lack of planning, budgeting and creativity. The Annaheim article I submitted has lots of very easy to do and creative small solutions. We don't have to hit a home run with every project - many small projects (singles - using the baseball metaphor) get you runs too.
3 years...We don't have a plan while other cities do. The US continues to outsource and Cleveland the place where the jobs used to be continues to be the poorest city in America. Wow! The economy is going down the tubes and as jobs leave, the politicians rather than reduce costs up property tax and income tax even more. The few people that are left have to leave. Maybe a few cities with plans survive. Those cities with Creative People who think outside of the standard view.
5 years... The problems of year 3 grow worse unless we look creatively at our problems. The US continues to fight in the Middle East and our energy costs are through the roof. What to do? Raise taxes - we don't have a plan.
10 years... Has Global Warming started? The schools are effected by both the energy costs and the number of defaults on property tax - which few people can afford any more - does the State take over? Has anyone come up with a plan yet?
20 years? I can't think that far off.
So Jim, what do I think the problems are:
1) No comprehensive planning. Okay, I'm prejudice but I want to see a plan to address sustainable energy - which I see will be a major problem in the future. Wind, Solar, Geothermal a combination. Lets start investigating. This could mean jobs, (big time industry) as well as a solution to Global Warming and our reliance on the Middle East an unstable area for fossil fuel.
While we are addressing that plan we should think about ways to grow our city - I really like the Pennisula idea. Lake front property is always the most desirable and we can make it. Not every city has that potential.
2) Budgeting - We need to find ways to work smarter not harder. Can there be ways to work together to save money? I think a task force on this with everything on the table would be great.
3) Creativity - The administration needs to be open to new ideas no matter who comes forward with them. We need to grow in a state that is shrinking next to a city that is the poorest in the US. Not an easy challenge. But I think a city who has a leader that thinks up a citizen's written newspaper is up to the challenge. We have a city full of creative people - we need to nurture them not turn them off to the extent that they go to other cities or states.
While I totally agree that taxes are waaay out of line - in Lakewood and in Ohio - I think they are a symptom of the problem of lack of planning, budgeting and creativity. The Annaheim article I submitted has lots of very easy to do and creative small solutions. We don't have to hit a home run with every project - many small projects (singles - using the baseball metaphor) get you runs too.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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Charyn Compeau
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:11 pm
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Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Could you gals keep to the thread topic?
High taxes are the BIGGEST Problem?
!
.
Sorry for the delay in responding, but I've been off with the girls painting our toenails and comparing fudge recipes....
High taxes in and of themselves are not the biggest problem (or else no one would live in NYC). What is a problem is when the tax burden is inordinately shifted to the individual in ONE location, where it's not in an another.
That's called "competitiveness". When property taxes are 75 percent higher (I'll use Grace's numbers, just for the heck of it) and houses 80 years older than in neighboring communities, you're asking sidewalks, backyard garbage collection, and "branding" to do a lot of heavy lifting.
Using the figures Grace provided, if you bought a $200,000 home in Avon Lake as opposed to a house for the same amount in Lakewood and put the property tax difference into a mutual fund paying 10%, in 20 years, you would have $134,000. Enough for an Ivy League education for one kid, CSU for three, or even.....uh.....a Lakewood double to rent out. I'm not all that smart, so if I can figure that out, so can a lot of other folks.
THAT'S your problem. It takes more than Kool-Aid to justify that.
(Aside to Grace: I do understand the property tax system. If you'll note, I mentioned it in another thread. I didn't say my friend's taxes were $4800 before the increase, did I? Sorry for being edgy, but you know how us girls get sometimes)
Lakewood for years depended on a combination of downtown Cleveland and its own small industries for jobs and tax revenues. Both of those sources have since dried up. If you dont mind, then neither should I (I have a souffle in the oven and then I have to get my hair done and finish watching Oprah and then....)
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Joan
In order of importance:
1) Please provide Fudge recipes on my forum,
2) Souffles are an oft forgotten, and wonderful meal addition....recipes would likewise be appreciated....
Now back to the discussion:
The largest problem, in my humble opinion, is a lack of any focused planning, regardless of the time span involved. What we have instead, is sort of a "all I want for Christmas" wish list, with no particular thought to the steps and hierarchy of projects, no ultimate goal, and of course, no predictable path to reach the goal. While some departments may have overall and long range plans (street repaving for example) there is precious little interplay between areas that could and should be linked. We want increased business, but where is the step by step laid out plan to get there. While certainly there are any number of ad hoc programs and initiatives, how do they fit into the overall scheme of things? Like flower baskets to beautify while garage cans overflow, many times it seems that we're at odds with ourselves, and taking on a project or opportunity without even an attempt to bring things into focus in an overall set of end goals.
A large part of the problem, is of course, a lack of money. Always was and always will be. But, for years, the city has been living paycheck to paycheck without any five (or even three) year projections for revenues, which in turn, results in the ad hoc means of spending it if ya got it on whatever may be the project du jour. If we had income projections (which of course, have to be reworked every year) going five years out, we could then begin determining what goals are financially feasible over a much longer haul, begin saving for them, and move forward in some directed fashion. Certainly the schools and the library undertake such planning and it is absolutely necessary for the city to do likewise. Once that peice is in place, we can better guage what we can afford to do, and put inplace the incremental steps to get there.
Jeff
In order of importance:
1) Please provide Fudge recipes on my forum,
2) Souffles are an oft forgotten, and wonderful meal addition....recipes would likewise be appreciated....
Now back to the discussion:
The largest problem, in my humble opinion, is a lack of any focused planning, regardless of the time span involved. What we have instead, is sort of a "all I want for Christmas" wish list, with no particular thought to the steps and hierarchy of projects, no ultimate goal, and of course, no predictable path to reach the goal. While some departments may have overall and long range plans (street repaving for example) there is precious little interplay between areas that could and should be linked. We want increased business, but where is the step by step laid out plan to get there. While certainly there are any number of ad hoc programs and initiatives, how do they fit into the overall scheme of things? Like flower baskets to beautify while garage cans overflow, many times it seems that we're at odds with ourselves, and taking on a project or opportunity without even an attempt to bring things into focus in an overall set of end goals.
A large part of the problem, is of course, a lack of money. Always was and always will be. But, for years, the city has been living paycheck to paycheck without any five (or even three) year projections for revenues, which in turn, results in the ad hoc means of spending it if ya got it on whatever may be the project du jour. If we had income projections (which of course, have to be reworked every year) going five years out, we could then begin determining what goals are financially feasible over a much longer haul, begin saving for them, and move forward in some directed fashion. Certainly the schools and the library undertake such planning and it is absolutely necessary for the city to do likewise. Once that peice is in place, we can better guage what we can afford to do, and put inplace the incremental steps to get there.
Jeff
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Shawn Juris
12 months, 3 years, 5 years on and on....
If Lakewood doesn't develop a way to generate commercial property tax income to significantly offset the tax burden of the individual then any vision will be irrelevant. Eventually there will be a wall a newly renovated West side Cleveland (W 40th to W 117th)dividing the two "old" neighborhoods of near west side from Lakewood. I would love to see some statistics on Lakewood's Commercial status. Who are the city's biggest tax contributors, employers, industries, etc. I've grown tired of the hype of "home businesses" and the idea that vacant storefronts are not a problem.
One of the few statistics that I found was that the Board of Ed and the City of Lakewood are number 2 and number 3 in the rankings of top employers. The idea that there are that many city employees either indicates that Lakewood has proven regionalism to be ineffective or that they are at the top of the list because the city has not been able to attract a mega employer to knock them down a few rankings. I'm sure that there are plenty of other explanations which will do nothing to resolve the problem (property taxes 75% higher than our newer neighbors). As much as I disagree with the rhetoric of simply being positive as opposed to actually initiating change to make things better, it's fascinating to observe how others think.
If Lakewood doesn't develop a way to generate commercial property tax income to significantly offset the tax burden of the individual then any vision will be irrelevant. Eventually there will be a wall a newly renovated West side Cleveland (W 40th to W 117th)dividing the two "old" neighborhoods of near west side from Lakewood. I would love to see some statistics on Lakewood's Commercial status. Who are the city's biggest tax contributors, employers, industries, etc. I've grown tired of the hype of "home businesses" and the idea that vacant storefronts are not a problem.
One of the few statistics that I found was that the Board of Ed and the City of Lakewood are number 2 and number 3 in the rankings of top employers. The idea that there are that many city employees either indicates that Lakewood has proven regionalism to be ineffective or that they are at the top of the list because the city has not been able to attract a mega employer to knock them down a few rankings. I'm sure that there are plenty of other explanations which will do nothing to resolve the problem (property taxes 75% higher than our newer neighbors). As much as I disagree with the rhetoric of simply being positive as opposed to actually initiating change to make things better, it's fascinating to observe how others think.
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
While not on topic, a thought occurred regarding the tax diferrentials between the "built out suburbs" (not just Lakewood, but River, Fairview, Shaker) and the "building suburbs" (Avon, Westlake, et al.....
Wonder what is going to happen when those building suburbs have to put in all the infrastructure to support the ballooning population? Will that tax differential lessen as things we already have (and have paid for) must be constructed? Schools, sewers, sidewalks, firestations, etc...Just wondering whether the tax haven will always remain so, or whether, at some point, these new cities will have to make the investment in improvements not necessary when they were "out in the country".
Okay, sorry for the distraction.
Wonder what is going to happen when those building suburbs have to put in all the infrastructure to support the ballooning population? Will that tax differential lessen as things we already have (and have paid for) must be constructed? Schools, sewers, sidewalks, firestations, etc...Just wondering whether the tax haven will always remain so, or whether, at some point, these new cities will have to make the investment in improvements not necessary when they were "out in the country".
Okay, sorry for the distraction.