John Moss' War Against Lakewood Library

[Bryan Schwegler]

Chris

Would it be fair to say, you had issues with Ken Warren and the LPL way before this policy was started?

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For the record, I like Ken Warren and I've never had a problem with him and I still have an issue with this policy.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Chris

Would it be fair to say, you had issues with Ken Warren and the LPL way before this policy was started?

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For the record, I like Ken Warren and I've never had a problem with him and I still have an issue with this policy.

Bryan

I was only speaking with Chris. You might say we had a "colorful" meeting. In the end, like many things, when we had a chance to discuss "issues" we found more in common than we would have ever thought.


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[Bryan Schwegler]

In the end, like many things, when we had a chance to discuss "issues" we found more in common than we would have ever thought.


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The funny thing is, that's often true in life.

[Jim O'Bryan]

In the end, like many things, when we had a chance to discuss "issues" we found more in common than we would have ever thought.


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The funny thing is, that's often true in life.

This is one reason I think the Observer works so well. When we get together(public Tuesday gatherings coming back), we can find so much common ground we can make positive changes.

When the Observer was started I reached to all corners of Lakewood to some to the table. The line I used was, if we put 100 items that need to be taken care of in Lakewood, we will agree on 80. So let's do that now and get back to the touchy discussion later.

The same is true on every level of life.


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[S. Galwey]

here's my letter:
I personally don't understand the article at all. All libraries have records of every book, magazine, CD, video, etc. that you've ever checked out. Where's the outrage that all these databases exist with your personal reading, listening and viewing habits? Why does this medium need different standards for folks

Actually I think that most libraries do not keep your reading records. A former manager Ed told me that years ago. Hard to imagine them keeping all that information. Perhaps Warren can clarify.

[Bryan Schwegler]

here's my letter:
I personally don't understand the article at all. All libraries have records of every book, magazine, CD, video, etc. that you've ever checked out. Where's the outrage that all these databases exist with your personal reading, listening and viewing habits? Why does this medium need different standards for folks

Actually I think that most libraries do not keep your reading records. A former manager Ed told me that years ago. Hard to imagine them keeping all that information. Perhaps Warren can clarify.

I could have sworn I read something on here before from Ken stating they delete records pretty quickly. It was in response to a conversation about the Patriot Act a few years back.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Actually I think that most libraries do not keep your reading records. A former manager Ed told me that years ago. Hard to imagine them keeping all that information. Perhaps Warren can clarify.

I remember a couple years ago, Ken in a discussion on this board, mentioning they did not keep records month to month as they had been asked by "homeland security." That while they kept records for themselves, they did not share them with any other group or entity.

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[Jeff Dreger]

Actually I think that most libraries do not keep your reading records. A former manager Ed told me that years ago. Hard to imagine them keeping all that information. Perhaps Warren can clarify.

It would make sense to delete that information once it was no longer useful. I guess my point was just that it seems like people have different standards for the internet than other media. Some folks seem to want a booth for privacy when using a pc. If you check out something obviously the library "knows" and has at least a temporary record. If you are looking at a book, magazine, etc. and not checking it out everyone can still see what you are viewing (staff, patrons, Carl Monday). If people glance at the computer screen and see what you're seeing - whether the old fashioned way or with the aid of VNC - it appear to be no different. Even if you feel differently about this issue and feel that taking a snapshot of the screen is a substantially different thing (and I haven't heard that explained), why do folks seem to pick on LPL? As I pointed out, the CCPL policy explicitly states that they may record your computer activity but John Moss is not taking them to task. Why not?

[Bryan Schwegler]

Actually I think that most libraries do not keep your reading records. A former manager Ed told me that years ago. Hard to imagine them keeping all that information. Perhaps Warren can clarify.

It would make sense to delete that information once it was no longer useful. I guess my point was just that it seems like people have different standards for the internet than other media. Some folks seem to want a booth for privacy when using a pc. If you check out something obviously the library "knows" and has at least a temporary record. If you are looking at a book, magazine, etc. and not checking it out everyone can still see what you are viewing (staff, patrons, Carl Monday). If people glance at the computer screen and see what you're seeing - whether the old fashioned way or with the aid of VNC - it appear to be no different. Even if you feel differently about this issue and feel that taking a snapshot of the screen is a substantially different thing (and I haven't heard that explained), why do folks seem to pick on LPL? As I pointed out, the CCPL policy explicitly states that they may record your computer activity but John Moss is not taking them to task. Why not?

Jeff, the big difference in all of the examples you gave is that they are all "passive" monitoring. Actively monitoring using remote software is a completely different animal in most people's minds.

I would be if you plainly put the question out there to most Lakewood citizens, a majority would be against active monitoring.

You simply can't logically compare someone walking by and glancing at a screen to someone actively monitoring your session with remote software, they are two totally different things.

[Richard Cole]

"We protect each individual’s privacy and confidentiality in the use of library resources and services"

American Library Association http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/statementspo ... erican.cfm

If...VNC is implemented as a matter of course, as the preferred method of ascertaining whether library patrons are adhering to community standards, it would appear to me, that an individual's privacy in the use of library resources and services is not being protected.

[Robert Bobik]

Mr. Warren dropped his membership to ALA.

[Jeff Dreger]

Jeff, the big difference in all of the examples you gave is that they are all "passive" monitoring. Actively monitoring using remote software is a completely different animal in most people's minds.

Bryan, it may just be the case that this is one of those things we on both sides agree to disagree about. If LPL staff purposefully walk around and take a look at everyone's screen that would seem to qualify as "active" monitoring. If instead of leaving their post they use a pair of binoculars to glance at everyone's screen it would also appear to be just as active and purposeful with the same result. If the binoculars are not available and they look at a snapshot of those same screens on their monitor I honestly don't see how that is any more "active" or any more purposeful or how the result is any different. Maybe I misunderstand the software's capability. In any case, IF such software is used it is only supposed to be in cases of suspect activity and not a routine thing. I guess I just can't see expecting privacy when I'm in public and when the person next to me can see everything anyway. Again, all the area libraries policy statements are in agreement that public computers are not and should not be considered private or secure. You may disagree with this policy in general, but surely the focus on LPL by Mr. Moss, the PD, etc. is in error when other NEOH libraries tell you that they may actively monitor and record your pc use.

[Bryan Schwegler]

but surely the focus on LPL by Mr. Moss, the PD, etc. is in error when other NEOH libraries tell you that they may actively monitor and record your pc use.

Jeff,
But do they really? I know that's what their TOS says, but do they really? Have you talked to their IT admins to find out what they actually do?

I believe I read that the LPL is actually the only library in the area to employ active remote monitoring. I don't believe this is done elsewhere.

Maybe I misunderstand the software's capability.

VNC does more than just "snapshot" it allows you to remotely watch in real-time exactly what a user is doing or typing:
http://www.realvnc.com/

In any case, IF such software is used it is only supposed to be in cases of suspect activity and not a routine thing.

And who regulates that and what public oversight is there of the process? What are the triggers and who determines "suspect activity"?

This was the same argument the government used when instituting the Patriot Act so I'm not so sure it's the best argument. This entire train of thought is the perfect "slippery slope" example.

[Jeff Dreger]

I know that's what their TOS says, but do they really?

if they don't, obviously they are at the very least leaving the option on the table as it were

VNC does more than just "snapshot" it allows you to remotely watch in real-time exactly what a user is doing or typing:

you mean just like you could if you were sitting next to them or behind them or, really, anywhere near them or even from the staff desk if they were in the first row?

And who regulates that and what public oversight is there of the process?

well, I don't have a good answer to that one... that question will always come up regarding the enforcement of any policies/rules in a public setting... what matter is "harmful to juveniles"? what exactly is "disruptive behavior'?

[David Lay]

you mean just like you could if you were sitting next to them or behind them or, really, anywhere near them or even from the staff desk if they were in the first row?

Yes. I use it to remotely access/control my Mac, just as if I was sitting at my desk using it.