Free Times to Cease July 23

[Jim O'Bryan]

Sorry, did not mean to offend. I'll put it this way.. this board is a great way to find out that something happened, and, while topics sometimes circle the block a few times before the full truth comes out, it provides a good service for minute to minute/day to day happenings. Call it citizen journalism or whatever you like, it's working.

I love LO. Rock on ....

Paul

Paul

The Deck is one very small section of the Observer. We have the front 2/3rds with up to the minute news, sales, clubs, photos, reviews, and even a polic blotter as much as I hate to say it.

The Deck is merely the digital version of the back fence. However the rumors are not as wild nor as damaging when a real name is associated to it. So this along with a couple others factors are why the LO and Observer projects are becoming the Gold standard.

What amazes me, is that Ivor when he takes a picture for us, is less or more credible when he sells that photo to the Sun or PD? Is the Sun or PD more credible when they "steal" images and stories by us? Is the Sun more credible when they attack the LO and that crazy "Civic Journalism" or more credible when they call LO's advertisers saying we are going out of business? Is the PD more credible before or after working with the LO board member Lauren Rich Fine on fixing their product?

At what point does the Westlake Observer become credible. Award winning designers, well know writers, and editors?

I got into a heated discussion with a writer that proudly told me she would NEVER write for the Observer, as we were unprofessional. I am always amazed when anyone calls the Observer unprofessional. We might be a lot but that is not one. After buying her lunch and continuing the heated debate it came down to "if we paid $20 for an article, then she would write."

So who is the better person to write or fight for the story? The hired $20.00 gun, or the person that is passionate about the story?

It is a new news world, and it is a powerful news world.

The Bloggers or so called Sixth Estate thought it was their turf to keep an eye on the 1-5 estates. In fact they have failed as well. A pompus lot that blows hards on the winds and energies of other blow hards.

Put the facts out, and then open the discussion. That is the future and it is the only way to fix all that is wrong. In the end, it is not my future or your future, it is our future, and to get there we must open the discussion.

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[Brad Hutchison]

What makes a journalist anyway? Going to journalism school? Big deal. Writing a story is just about paying attention and knowing who to talk to. As long as you can efficiently and effectively communicate that in writing, you're a journalist as far as I'm concerned.

If I want to know what's going on locally, why wouldn't I rather have a local writing my news? Someone who knows the people, knows the places, participated in or put on the event... The "Local" section of a large, statewide paper and its lot of "professional" journalists can't compete with that.

[Dee Martinez]

[I got into a heated discussion with a writer that proudly told me she would NEVER write for the Observer, as we were unprofessional. I am always amazed when anyone calls the Observer unprofessional. We might be a lot but that is not one. After buying her lunch and continuing the heated debate it came down to "if we paid $20 for an article, then she would write."

So who is the better person to write or fight for the story? The hired $20.00 gun, or the person that is passionate about the story?

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Sorry Jim but you just proved the point about professionalism or lack thereof.
I could say that I had lunch with a guy yesterday who claimed that he was at the Observer offices and saw 10-pound bag of cocaine and a gallon jug of grain alcohol being passed around.
Without a name on the story people can check, anybody can make anything up. And because its right there for everyone to see, it has to be the truth right?
Youve often criticized Mr Call for his "I talked to this guy I know" posts and I agree. Not OK when you do it either.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Sorry Jim but you just proved the point about professionalism or lack thereof.
I could say that I had lunch with a guy yesterday who claimed that he was at the Observer offices and saw 10-pound bag of cocaine and a gallon jug of grain alcohol being passed around.
Without a name on the story people can check, anybody can make anything up. And because its right there for everyone to see, it has to be the truth right?
Youve often criticized Mr Call for his "I talked to this guy I know" posts and I agree. Not OK when you do it either.

Dee


This does not even past the giggle test. I do not know of any paper that has not used "confidential sources." In my case it was someone that ended up writing for us anyway, and saw no need to embarrass the person with the conversation.

However if you doubt it please call the FreeTimes, Scene, SunPapers and see what they are paying for a story. Usually between $12 - $50 depending on the size and where it ends up.

It is low enough that I was looking at a for profit model for the Lakewood Observer, however most writers still prefer the LO helping civic groups with any extra.

But Dee if you do not want to believe the number I can live with that. But do not tell me that is the difference between "professional and civic." We have to go no farther than Deep Throat and Watergate.

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[Bryan Schwegler]

I think it's important that any journalist, civic or otherwise, has a guiding principles and a code of ethics that they follow.

IMHO, there is a big difference between Sally Citizen writing a story about a local event they attended and and Johnny Journalist writing an article about a project, scandal, or investigative report.

Sally's article may be interesting and may be a great human interst piece, but I doubt Sally followed any journalistic best practices or code of ethics. It's an opinion piece and probably a very good one but I'm sure it would probably be written from a perspective of that person, without objective, jouralistic principles.

I think it's probably a little insulting to say a journalist is no better than Sally Citizen just because Sally can write. That's like me saying I'm just as good as Matt Fish because I watched Emeril make a grilled cheese on TV. Training, schooling, etc does make a difference.

I think Sally's article in this example is very valuable for what it is but I wouldn't confuse that with true journalism.

[Jim O'Bryan]

I think it's probably a little insulting to say a journalist is no better than Sally Citizen just because Sally can write. That's like me saying I'm just as good as Matt Fish because I watched Emeril make a grilled cheese on TV. Training, schooling, etc does make a difference.

I think Sally's article in this example is very valuable for what it is but I wouldn't confuse that with true journalism.

Bryan

What if Sally went to Journalism School? what if Sally wrote for the high school paper and college paper? What if Sally wrote books, and books anwas awarded for that? What if Sally wrote as a freelancer for various publications? This is just a small sample list of what I could lay out at Observer writers.

Or I could go farther, doctorates from Harvard and Yale, masters from a whole host of other schools. Decades in their chosen professions, none on the shill.

Before this I was involved in a very high profile motorsports program. I would entertain journalists for the weekend, and watch them pick up their own bill, "as to no be beholding." Then watch them crank out of piece from some other weekend because it had nothing to do with what we had covered.

Recently the PD did a series of interviews about my software company. Our number one product is software that can save a newspaper 60% or more of production costs. This is in a business that is failing, in trouble and shutting up shops around the world. At the same time we have printers going out of business around the world. AGS software is on the cutting edge of the world of collaborative software like My Space, Wikipedia, Human Genome Project, You Tube, etc. While others are failing in business, the Observer and AGS is now working with papers new and old in many states.

The PD Business wanted the story and chased us for weeks, finally we laid it out. Well since that story was shelved we have jumped in with saving another 10 papers nationally, have hired a CEO (Yale Wall Street Guy) and being courted by numerous investors. Written about in Wall Street Journal, Ad Age, Crain's and other places.

One would think a growing business would be good news for Clevelanders. But the PD killed the story because we compete with the Sun. Or so it was relayed back to me. Integrity? News? Facts?

Recently the Library has completed one of the most amazing construction projects of recent memory in the city of Cleveland. An A.M. Stern Building in Cleveland built by an inner ring surburb that is experiencing many different cash problems. So the "unbiased" media choses porn over substance for their front page story.

The fact is the only reason you think of they as the gatekeepers of truth and knowledge is because they told you they were. In the end even the pros have bias and agendas. Recently it has gotten out of control.

At least with citizen journalism you walk in expecting the bias that more often than not never appears.

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[chris richards]

So who is the better person to write or fight for the story? The hired $20.00 gun, or the person that is passionate about the story?
.

So who is the better person to fix a car, a trained certified mechanic who charges for his time and expertise, or Joe Shmoe who works for free out of his back yard just because he's got a passion for cars and a book from the library?

It's one thing to look at citizen journalism as an extension to journalism, but the remarks on this thread have been more about replacing a profession that requires higher education and pays people for having that education with people who lack it willing to do the work for free.

There is a difference between the average citizen writing articles and the professional journalist, who gets paid for their work, to write an article probono. Just as there is a difference between graphic designers who get a four year degree and those who download a copy of photoshop or indesign and play desktop publisher.

[Brad Hutchison]

I think it's important that any journalist, civic or otherwise, has a guiding principles and a code of ethics that they follow.

I understand your point Bryan, but I don't think it's fair to imply that Sally Citizen can't/doesn't adhere to "principles and codes." The editor's job is to run the article in the appropriate section. Opinion and human interest is what makes up a lot of community reporting anyway, as you say, and no one can do it better than Sally.

Besides, Bryan, you're a history scholar, you know as well as I do there's no such thing as objective writing.

[Bryan Schwegler]

What if Sally went to Journalism School? what if Sally wrote for the high school paper and college paper? What if Sally wrote books, and books anwas awarded for that? What if Sally wrote as a freelancer for various publications? This is just a small sample list of what I could lay out at Observer writers.

Jim,
My point isn't that there aren't good people writing stories for the Observer, actually no where did I even mention the Observer in my post. My comments could apply to the Observer, bloggers, or any other publication.

My main point was defending journalists against those who say there's nothing special about being a journalist, no need to get defensive about the Observer . I personally think there is something that training and years of schooling can teach you. Others may disagree and that's their right.

Mainstream journalists may have failed on some issues, I agree. But let's not pretend unchecked citizen journalism is the answer either. I would put forth that a citizen journalist with an agenda and lack of facts is just as dangerous as a mainstream paper that buries a story.

I still think citizen journalists and bloggers need a code of ethics and some guiding principles, just like mainstream journalists.

[michael gill]

Speaking of the giggle test, Jim, where did you get those payment amounts?

[Bryan Schwegler]

I think it's important that any journalist, civic or otherwise, has a guiding principles and a code of ethics that they follow.

I understand your point Bryan, but I don't think it's fair to imply that Sally Citizen can't/doesn't adhere to "principles and codes."

I didn't mean to say that she didn't. But if she does, who's code is it and where did she get it from? Of course there are bad journalists too so it's not just a slam on Sally. Both groups need to be held accountable for the truth they write.

Besides, Bryan, you're a history scholar, you know as well as I do there's no such thing as objective writing.

I completely agree on that. But that doesn't negate the need for a code of ethics or application of journalistic principles.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Just as there is a difference between graphic designers who get a four year degree and those who download a copy of photoshop or indesign and play desktop publisher.

Photoshop still scares me so I am in awe of graphic designers.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Mainstream journalists may have failed on some issues, I agree. But let's not pretend unchecked citizen journalism is the answer either. I would put forth that a citizen journalist with an agenda and lack of facts is just as dangerous as a mainstream paper that buries a story.

I still think citizen journalists and bloggers need a code of ethics and some guiding principles, just like mainstream journalists.

Bryan

The Lakewood Observer was invited to a conference of Bloggers last year. Our topic of conversation was "Jihad against the other guys." Comparing bloggers to AlQuada. I do not like bloggers as a rule.

However open discussion with real names rules, with the self centering of a community that cares. People willing to put their names on their thoughts and what they have heard. Through the smoke and the fog will appear a much clearer picture.

I would say that the one thing that differs the unchecked citizen journalist to the pro with an agenda is that the civic journalist takes ownership of his/her bias or agenda and does not benefit from the smoke screen of the "4th estate."

I would agree that all need the code of ethics, and right now the internet is wild west of journalism. One reason we are now working with AP to bring a code of ethics to the civic arena. It would be interesting to see what the 4th Estate is going to do.

I am just confused as we sit on the biggest media disaster of history, the Iraq War, that anyone can tell me about the 4th estate and principles.

That said, Michael Gill is one of the most principled I know.


FWIW

[Jim O'Bryan]

Speaking of the giggle test, Jim, where did you get those payment amounts?

Sun, Westlife, and you at Phoenix.

What would you pay for a short one on page 5?

Not a feature.


FWIW


.

[michael gill]

And Brad: What makes a dentist, anyway? Going to Dental School? Big deal.

If anyone who speaks English and pays attention is a writer and a journalist, then anyone who can operate a drill and hit their mark is a dentist.

But this is a distracting point. News media employs people to spend their days gathering and reporting news. This doesn't say anything about the skills or training of individuals, but speaks to a reality of the job. It is no slight to a citizen journalist to observe that if the person spends the day fixing teeth or designing space ships, or seeing after the health of puppies, the person hasn't spent the day gathering the news about the community.

I have an enormous love and respect for the Observer. Really. You ought to see the size of my love. But while reports from the Beck Center about the Beck Center, from the Library about the Library, from a politically committed person on city council are great and serve a purpose, they are not the same as having a person whose job is to report on the place.