Fatal Car Crash on Madison Avenue

[David Scott]

It is somewhat disturbing that a subject that began with the death of a little girl and severe injuries to two others quickly delved into a topic on how this effects our property values and perception of Lakewood - then to whether a video should of been posted and now to the 1st Amendment.

a little girl was killed and if someone on this deck wants to focus on how that effects people's perception of Arthur Ave and property values in general then maybe they should look at their own values and morals.

there was a tragic event and it gets turned into bickering.

a few posts at the beginning gave prayers to the family and that stopped. Nowhere did someone ask what they could do. when other tragic events occured there was an attempt to help the family. Perhaps because this girl was not a Lakewood native, perhaps because noone knew her personally, perhaps it happened on the East side and not the West side - whatever. The quasi "photo-journalism" of this video is similar to the various swat team stand-offs posted earlier : they both are offsensive to the families involved.

Rather then bickering about the video or property values why not see if for what it is. It is a sad event - on the first nice day of the year some guy had to drink too much and run down a little girl who only wanted to go outside and play. Think for a second, she was one year old. Most likely this was the very first day of her life that she was able to go outside and play. She probably had just started walking. Couldn't say but a few words. And now some fool had to drink too much and drive too fast. Just this morning by the school on Detroit (by Almeda) I saw two cars come down the side streets onto Detroit and slow up at Detroit but not stop - instead as soon as they saw there was no cross traffic they sped up and took the turn fast enough to beat any traffic. one turned into the architect or law firm across from the school and I am calling him out. People - we really need to stop and think. We are the adults. Slow down. Don't get drunk in the middle of the afternoon and drive. Treasure your children. Feel for this family and have the community reach to the family.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Since you did not answer my question concerning the definition of "generally objectionable material" I will assume that you simply took it upon yourself to edit my post without contacting me first because you didn't like it.

In the past, I have seen posts that myself (and others) have found objectionable and it was explained to me that censorship will never occur on the Deck and that the use of "real names" makes censorship unnecessary. Has this policy changed?

Rick

Please let me look into this. I look forward to the answers that come from this.

In the past one other person took us to the point of near censorship as that person kept posting copyrighted material from other sources, and we were more concerned over the lawsuit than anything else.

Also in the past were many concerns over some things posted. I always called that person and appealed to their common sense to take those things down. We never edited anything.

Throw in the 4 messages I deleted by mistake, and asked the originial posters to please put back up, and we have a pretty damn good run of no censorship/editing.

However, DL has always been running the Deck, and Jim DeVito is up to speed on that. It is possible, that someone found the photo of the dead child so objectionable that something had to be done.

I should note that our model did go from open source to "civic source" which did allow us to think more in the civic good for the city mode, than a free for all of whatever you think may stick throw out there.

In the end the discussion is good for the city and this project.

FWIW


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[Jim O'Bryan]

She probably had just started walking. Couldn't say but a few words. And now some fool had to drink too much and drive too fast. Just this morning by the school on Detroit (by Almeda) I saw two cars come down the side streets onto Detroit and slow up at Detroit but not stop - instead as soon as they saw there was no cross traffic they sped up and took the turn fast enough to beat any traffic. one turned into the architect or law firm across from the school and I am calling him out. People - we really need to stop and think. We are the adults. Slow down. Don't get drunk in the middle of the afternoon and drive. Treasure your children. Feel for this family and have the community reach to the family.

David

As I am sure Rick will tell you, my original point, made in private was, "What is the need for this, and what will we learn."

We already know drunk drivers can create hell. We know that everytime a child walks away anything can happen. We should already understand how precious life is.

To use it as a tool to draw readers, is sick, in my opinion.

I am glad it is down, but troubled by how it got that way.


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[Suzanne Metelko]

I do not and will not defend posting videos of minor children lying dead or hurt on Lakewood sidewalks on a discussion board.

Again, it comes down to clarity versus diversion. The original post from Jim to Rick was not about the content of the video but rather the source of the video. He did not criticize Rick for the content of the video but chose to chastize him for attributing it to crimewood.com. My comment related to that hair splitting not the content of the video. I made that clear in my post but instead of answering my post with an answer that was relative to the content of my post, you divert the subject to the content of the video and you made it personal. That's not what we're talking about.

Now if you want to debate the content of the video and your right to object and remove it - that's a no brainer. As I've pointed out repeatedly, this may be billed as a community owned forum, but it is not. You and Jim are founders, owners, and therefore can do whatever you please, control the content in whatever manner you wish. I have understood that from the beginning - I get it. Everyone else needs to get it to. This is a private forum - not a public one.

We can move on. I suggest a thread about drunk driving. I, like Rick, have really strong opinions on that subject. That video should be required viewing for any offender.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Condolences to the Family, a tragic event

This is going off on a tangent, but, the blurb at the bottom indicates that all content is copyrighted by the Lakewood Observer. If there was ever a legal scenario - libel, etc etc, and the offending material is copyrighted by the LO, would the site administrators somehow be held liable?

Agreed, and to use it for commercial reasons appalling.

Our copyright is here to protect the Lakewood Observer and contributors. We have never felt that we owned the thoughts or words of contributors, but offer it as a service for them.

As for liable, in the end you can sue a ham sandwich. One reason we go everywhere heavy in legal support.

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[Stephen Eisel]

How are the other two children?

Were the children related?

[dl meckes]

I would not have known about the content of the video had it not been brought to my attention by others.

Had the video only shown the DUI test, I would not have taken down the link.

The distinction is the depiction of the minors.

[dl meckes]

As I've pointed out repeatedly, this may be billed as a community owned forum, but it is not. You and Jim are founders, owners, and therefore can do whatever you please, control the content in whatever manner you wish. I have understood that from the beginning - I get it. Everyone else needs to get it to. This is a private forum - not a public one.

The community has a say in what is or is not objectionable material. Community members post.

The community cannot literally administrate the board.

It has been suggested on more than one occasion that the board should have more moderation. I personally don't want that.

There are a group of people who have permissions set to edit or remove posts but only three people regularly maintain the board.

Therefore, the people who receive the complaints who are charged with administrating the board are the people who ultimately make the decisions.

[Charyn Compeau]

In some ways I agree with Todd -

One thing I noticed within myself is that viewing the video made it so irrevocably REAL.

I was saddened and dismayed when I heard what had happened.

...but I was brought to tears when I saw the video.

I thought to talk to my older children (again) about the dangers or drunk driving when I heard the news.

...but I picked up the phone and not only called them, but called my friends and implored them to call their college-age children as well.

I dont know the right answer to this debacle.

I do know that for what it is worth, the appearance that video on this website was the catalyst for me to act far more forcefully and passionately than I would have otherwise.

I hope others reacted the same and that there was at least some constructive reaction to the video.

Again, I do *not* know the right answer here but, as it is often mentioned, this is a brave new world - I dont expect it all to be easy.

Always,
Charyn

[Dee Martinez]

, this is a brave new world - I dont expect it all to be easy.

n

Maybe not so "new". Sounds like this is a debate about content, editorial control, whats "fit to print" etc. In short the same things other traditional newspapers have been wrestling with forever.
And surprise! The Observer isnt immune from those criticisms and debates.
The wheel hasnt been reinvented after all.

[Jeff Endress]

As I read over this thread, it occurs to me that the comments being made give further support to my looking forward to a new advisory board being put in place.

Hopefully once other people are running this show, the idea that it's the personal toy of DL, OB or others can be put to rest. Then it'll be someone else who gets to control the content in whatever manner they wish...

Jeff

[Suzanne Metelko]

Hopefully once other people are running this show, the idea that it's the personal toy of DL, OB or others can be put to rest. Then it'll be someone else who gets to control the content in whatever manner they wish...

Jeff

If this is to be a public board, then "someone...gets to control" isn't what we're after. A new advisory board could set policies that would reflect the mission and vision of the forum; a much better and somewhat less subjective control. Not unlike a civic entity we know and love.

[Jeff Endress]

I look forward to it!

Jeff

[stephen davis]

If this is to be a public board, then "someone...gets to control" isn't what we're after.

Suzanne,


Who's the "we" in "we're"? What ARE you, and the "we", after?


Steve


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[Shawn Juris]

To go a different direction than the bickering, the calls for moderation and the reorganization of the board. I've read the reports on this case and it is as described a "freak accident", tragic, and certainly I can only begin to imagine how difficult it is for the family. While on the one hand there is a need for precaution and common sense to not drive drunk, on the other it came to my attention the other day how many children do walk around Lakewood. I wish that I didn't have to add disclaimers but seeing who's in this audience, I am not suggesting that I am blaming the victim in this case. This past weekend someone was visiting and we were talking about the differences between their city and Lakewood. The first thing mentioned was all of the kids walking around. This is something that I've seen before and has sporatically raised concern but it really is shocking when you take a step back and consider the ages of the kids that walk around unattended by adults. Our city may be deemed walkable but cars pass within inches at times of the sidewalk. I suggest for precaution sake not only to emphasize always the importance of not drinking and driving but to also take control of what you can control. Maybe I'm being over protective but I don't think that it's normal to allow a small child to be walking down to DairyQueen by themselves. In the past I've seen children that couldn't be more than 6 standing on the corner. Where are they going and where are their parents?
Again, this is not to excuse the behavior of the driver, this is not to say that kids can't play in their front yard. This is only to take a bigger look at our surroundings and ask what is happening that could lead to another tragic situation that could have been prevented.