Congressman Kucinich, Lakewood's Lord Haw Haw

[Bill Call]

Lord Haw Haw was the name given to various propagandists for Nazi Germany. The most famous was a man named William Joyce. An Irish-American, Joyce was a supporter of Nazi Germany, a great admirer of Adolf Hitler and a member of the British Union of Fascists. His broadcasts from Nazi Germany during the war were noted for their contemptuous attitude towards the British war effort. He was hanged for treason in 1946.

The United States is cursed with its own brand of Lords Haw Haw. These people align themselves with the enemies of the United States and various anti-Semitic groups. The groups they support are quite clear in their goals:

1. The establishment of a new Caliphate.
2. Extermination of the Jews

There are other goals but if they succeed in the first two they get the rest.

The most notorious and dangerous of these groups are the nation state of Iran and the terrorist group Hezbollah. Nasrallah, leader of Hezbollah, is quit clear in his genocidal goals. Just one of many statements: “If all Jews gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.â€Â

[c. dawson]

wow, what a lovely little example of pure hatred. Though I disagree with you entirely, you do have a right to espouse your hatred ... it's called Freedom of Speech, something I suspect you wouldn't support if it means contrary opinions to your own.

Though I must point out you've made some spelling errors ... "anti-Semitisim" instead of anti-semitism, and "Kuzinich" instead of Kucinich.

So if you're going to espouse hatred, you should try to spell correctly.

[Bill Call]

So if you're going to espouse hatred, you should try to spell correctly.

Thanks for the spelling lesson!

Actually, I don't hate Kucinich. I just think he is dangerous.

See: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZD ... MzNDhmMzk=

I am a little curious. What do you think these terrorist leaders mean when they call for the elimination of the Zionist entity?

[Kenneth Warren]

Bill:

I can see that you are reacting to the scenario of the Total War/Clash of Civilizations between the Arab and West. You are understandably allied with the Anglo/American/Israeli modern axis as opposed to the German/French/Iranian traditional one in a cultural and geopolitical battle that has been going on since WWI. Nevertheless, I believe you are over the top on Lord Haw Haw slam of Congressman Kucinich and out of bounds to attempt to slip the slur of anti-Semitism his way.

I can understand power politics, the hate for Zionism that never stops growing with the Arabic population, and the either/or choice in the Total War scenario. I can see that you are pushing hard in that Neocon register. In the process you are overstating terms for a realistic understanding of the conflict, history, interests, moral dilemmas, power politics and provocations we are all facing in the Middle East.

Like it or not, there are moral dilemmas that hinge of the issue of Arab rights in relation to Zionism. To raise this issue is not at all popular in the United States, especially as the War of Terror and Fossil Fuel crunch rages on, setting into motion ever increasing cycles of anger, violence, fear and resentment.

History is as complex as our lives in Lakewood. So let’s not overlook what happened to Jews in Germany and what the subsequent formation of Israel and its occupation of Lebanon have meant to Palestinian and Lebanese people.

I don’t believe we should make excuses or deny injustices from any side of the conflict.

We have neighbors in Lakewood and friends of our children who have suffered and lost loved one and property, because the West enabled Zionist claims to Palestine on the basis of the moral tragedy of the Holocaust.

Some people are more willing to accept that than others, depending upon who, what and where you are, what you know and what happened to your family and property.

It’s seems only reasonable that such an imposition by the West on Arabic people, even if claimed on the basis of Biblical decree, would not sit well with the people under the gun, especially the Muslims. That they would attempt an armed resistance is not surprising.

I take you have surmised that the armed resistance is pointed our way and we can see the whites of the enemy eyes. In a total war we better nuke them before they nuke us.

I gather you have read the history, drawn your conclusion and decided to take a shot at Congressman Kucinich, who might have drawn a different conclusion, one that doesn’t fit the Total War premise. That does not make him analogous to Lord Haw Haw in my book.

Anyway, here’s an opinion piece by Anders Strindberg – “Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanonâ€Â

[Lynn Farris]

Maybe I'm making this too simple. But all of us have more in common than we have differences. The people in Lebanon and the people in Israel, the common average people have the same dreams and hopes.

One of the songs that really got to me during the cold war was the Russians. You can substitute the Israelis or the Lebanese or the Americans or the Iraqis instead of the Russians depending on your perspective.

"Russians"

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you


I have always hoped that the average person will dominate and convince the leaders that they love their children more than they hate each other.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty" Thomas Jefferson

[ryan costa]

jews in Iran

There are currently about 100 synagogues in Iran. Iranian Jews generally have greater civil liberties than Muslim Iranians.

there were jews spread throughout the Middle East before Zionism started making headways.

Any attempts to install "Democracy" in Iran will probably yield the civil war Iraq is currently on the cusp of.

Anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism.

When a white supremecist group claims to want their own sovereign territory in the pacific northwest or Montana, they aren't taken seriously at all.

Is citizenship in Israel defined as being jewish?

It is easier to think of this in terms of the fallout of European imperialism or hedgemoney over Africa and Asia. Both have been wracked with Civil Wars and the occasional genocides and killing sprees since trying to sort themselves out after World War II.

But Israel is made up of immigrants thoroughly westernized in Europe or the United States. We feel more comfortable selling them weapons, and they communicate with us in terms we can understand.

but eventually we will lose interest in Israel. All of our satellite dependencies wil be shed like so many antlers. Taiwan, South Korea, and Israel will become as much a concern as Tibet. Japan will probably become China or India's Toadie, like Great Britain is our Toadie today.

[Joan Roberts]

I have always hoped that the average person will dominate and convince the leaders that they love their children more than they hate each other.

Alas, a good many people in every nation, ours included, would define "loving their children" as "keeping them out of the hands of the enemy."

Make no mistake. Arab parents would rather see their children dead than under the thumb of Israelis,and probably vice versa.

If you knew the Taliban were going to take over Lakewood, would you choose life under Osama or an honorable death for your daughter a greater expression of love?

Wars end when one side is vanquished or when two sides play to a stalemate they can no longer afford. But for that to happen, both sides need to feel they've "won". Which is where all partites, including us, happen to be right now.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Make no mistake. Arab parents would rather see their children dead than under the thumb of Israelis,and probably vice versa.

If you knew the Taliban were going to take over Lakewood, would you choose life under Osama or an honorable death for your daughter a greater expression of love?

Wars end when one side is vanquished or when two sides play to a stalemate they can no longer afford. But for that to happen, both sides need to feel they've "won". Which is where all partites, including us, happen to be right now.

Joan

One thing I always think many Americans overlook. For the most part Americans practice religon. Those in the MidEast tend to live religion. It is a huge difference when it comes to things like love, hate, understanding.

FWIW


.

[Joan Roberts]

One thing I always think many Americans overlook. For the most part Americans practice religon. Those in the MidEast tend to live religion. It is a huge difference when it comes to things like love, hate, understanding.

FWIW


.

Absolutely, and the idea of a church-state separation is either unknown or anathema in Muslim states.

The problem of course is, just as all Christians are not Catholic, all Muslims don't adhere to one sect or another. And of course, many, many, many more Muslims have been killed not by Christians or Jews, but by other Muslims.

Yet we still make little effort to understand. Personally, I don't believe any solution is possible in the Middle East until the US elects a President fluent in Arabic.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

The problem of course is, just as all Christians are not Catholic, all Muslims don't adhere to one sect or another

Not all Israeli's want to kill Palestineans. There's groups that have been active for a long time bringing the two sides together through families and trying to find peace.
And after all,
All muslims aren't terrorists either.

If you sit down with them and have a unbiased conversation with them, you'll be suprised how much you can learn.

You guys should watch more Anderson Cooper- because Glenn Beck doesn't know what he's talking about. It's easy to pick apart situations overseas when you're sitting in a comfortable studio thousands of miles away.

when you have families/neighbors that used to break bread together killing each other over a political cause, it's going to take a lot more than a UN cease-fire to glue everything back together.

They need the Lakewood Accords now, since the Dayton Accords have already been taken. Do we have any writers in the house?

[ryan costa]

The problem of course is, just as all Christians are not Catholic, all Muslims don't adhere to one sect or another

Not all Israeli's want to kill Palestineans. There's groups that have been active for a long time bringing the two sides together through families and trying to find peace.
And after all,
All muslims aren't terrorists either.

If you sit down with them and have a unbiased conversation with them, you'll be suprised how much you can learn.

You guys should watch more Anderson Cooper- because Glenn Beck doesn't know what he's talking about. It's easy to pick apart situations overseas when you're sitting in a comfortable studio thousands of miles away.

when you have families/neighbors that used to break bread together killing each other over a political cause, it's going to take a lot more than a UN cease-fire to glue everything back together.

They need the Lakewood Accords now, since the Dayton Accords have already been taken. Do we have any writers in the house?

I listen to a lot of Cat Stevens music. Although he wrote it before embracing Islam, this might make me better at understanding the potential appeal of Islam. I'm willing to offer my services to any think tank willing to pay me a hefty white collar salary. They don't even have to treat me to lobster dinners at out of the way resorts.

[Bill Call]

Nevertheless, I believe you are over the top on Lord Haw Haw slam of Congressman Kucinich and out of bounds to attempt to slip the slur of anti-Semitism his way.

We have neighbors in Lakewood and friends of our children who have suffered and lost loved one and property, because the West enabled Zionist claims to Palestine on the basis of the moral tragedy of the Holocaust.

Some people are more willing to accept that than others, depending upon who, what and where you are, what you know and what happened to your family and property.

Lord Haw Haw was sympathetic to the plight of the Germans displaced after World War I. He supported a right of return for those displaced Germans. Germans citizens certainly didn't want to live under the Poles or Russians. At the time a lot of people thought Hitler's demands were quite reasonable.

Congressman Kucinich's support of Palestinian demands are really no different than Haw Haw's support of German demands. I think comparing the congressman to Haw Haw is very appropriate.

Poor lord Haw Haw was just born 50 years to early.

You might have a point regarding my accusation that Kucinich is anti-Semitic. Maybe it is unfair. So...

There are millions of people who have lost countries, property and homes over the last 100 years. The Germans, the Serbs, the Greeks, the Kurds etc.

If any of those groups were to murder sleeping marines, plant bombs on air planes, target elementry schools for terror attacks, call for the extermination of Poles, Turks, Bosnians etc. would congressman Kucinich feel compelled to support them? After all don't they have legitimate grievances?

If you can find such an example then the Congressman's support of Hamas and Hezballah are not based on anti-Semetism. They are based on an insane world view. A world view that says: My great grand father owned that farm and I am going to keep killing until I get it back!!

A world view based on the theory that people should remember everything and learn nothing.

[Joan Roberts]

The problem with WW2 analogies is that they always break down when applied to current situations.

If today's Palestinians were like Hitler's Germans, Israel would have ceased to exist a long time ago. Hitler had quite a military force, you'll recall, not a rag tag bunch of rock throwers and rocket launchers.

The problem IMO is this: Israel and the US simply cannot win by military might alone. Israel can nuke Lebanone, Palestine, and Syria, but then it will incur the wrath of Iran, Saudi Arabia, probably even Jordan, Egypt, and the Gulf States. Then theres Indonesia, Pakistan (with its folk hero somewhere in the mountains). In the meantime, a stray suitcase nuke is almost certainly to find its way into Manhattan.

Yet every time someone, even a hard-headed realpolitiker from the right, suggests a more measured approach, he gets accused of being an "appeaser".

Despite all the bombs and deaths, this has been going on for nearly 60 years, and there's no reason to believe it's not going to last another 60. Remember that famous definition of insanity....................

[Lynn Farris]

Jim,

I beg to differ with you. About 15 percent of Israeli Jews are orthodox according to the United Jewish Communities. To some degree it is more culture than it is "pure religion".

Whereas American fundamentalism is on the rise. http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.htmlThis article has been picked up by virtually all the big news organizations.
[quote]A comparison of peoples' views in 34 countries finds that the United States ranks near the bottom when it comes to public acceptance of evolution. Only Turkey ranked lower.

Among the factors contributing to America's low score are poor understanding of biology, especially genetics, the politicization of science and the literal interpretation of the Bible by a small but vocal group of American Christians, the researchers say.

“American Protestantism is more fundamentalist than anybody except perhaps the Islamic fundamentalist, which is why Turkey and we are so close,â€Â

[Jim O'Bryan]

[quote="Lynn Farris"]Jim,

I beg to differ with you. About 15 percent of Israeli Jews are orthodox according to the United Jewish Communities. To some degree it is more culture than it is "pure religion".

Whereas American fundamentalism is on the rise. http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060810_evo_rank.htmlThis article has been picked up by virtually all the big news organizations.
[quote]A comparison of peoples' views in 34 countries finds that the United States ranks near the bottom when it comes to public acceptance of evolution. Only Turkey ranked lower.

Among the factors contributing to America's low score are poor understanding of biology, especially genetics, the politicization of science and the literal interpretation of the Bible by a small but vocal group of American Christians, the researchers say.

“American Protestantism is more fundamentalist than anybody except perhaps the Islamic fundamentalist, which is why Turkey and we are so close,â€Â