Gripe, Gripe, Gripe...

[Will Brown]

I (naturally) take exception to the characterization of criticism as griping.

Griping, in my opinion, is complaining for complaining's sake; criticism is, in my opinion, saying that this is not perfect, and we should do something to make it better.

My feeling is that if we just praise the Lakewood schools, they will have little incentive to do better, and I think it is important that they do better. Note that I do not assert that the Lakewood schools are inferior; I think they are better than most, but not as good as we need them to be.

I do tend to lump all public schools as one industry, because they have more similarities than differences. Certification of teachers is similar across the country; teacher resistance to being evaluated by testing of their students is almost universal. The idea that paying teachers more will make better teachers is rarely questioned (we close our eyes to the excellence of a Jesuit education delivered at very low pay; few of us have even heard of a religious school in inner city Cleveland where teachers are paid individually, based on student achievement, rather than at union scale, and where almost all their graduates are admitted to college). Feel free to disagree with me; perhaps we can find universal ground.

So if this forum is to be anything more than a message board, I think we will just have to accept that people will disagree, and hope that out of that tempest of disagreement, we will find an occasional pearl.

[Jim O'Bryan]

So if this forum is to be anything more than a message board, I think we will just have to accept that people will disagree, and hope that out of that tempest of disagreement, we will find an occasional pearl.

add respect for the messenger, and I think we have it.


.

[Shawn Juris]

So if this forum is to be anything more than a message board, I think we will just have to accept that people will disagree, and hope that out of that tempest of disagreement, we will find an occasional pearl.

add respect for the messenger, and I think we have it.


.

ahem. we have what? Practice what you preach Jim.

[Gary Rice]

So many disputations in the long, sad history of the human race...

And this 'Deck seems to echo these tribulations on and on and on...

During this very Holy Week for Christians, I am reminded of the words of Jesus; uttered when He stopped the would-be stoning of that prostitute: "Let he, that is without sin among you, cast a stone...".

I wish that more of us, myself included, would try to practice what HE preached.

[Dee Martinez]

I wanted to clarify that I somewhat regretted bringing the teacher issue into Mr. Rices thread. I probably wouldnt have responded at all had he not included it. I later felt he was making an overall point, and a good one, and I feel a little (just a little) bad about making it a specific thing.

The second point is more personal. During my marriage, whenever I wanted to express a concern or something that troubled me, my ex would always say, "Do we have to argue about this now? Why do you always have to bring this up at dinner/the weekend/bedtime/driving to the grocery store, etc"
It is very frustrating when one party feels as though they have an opinon that needs heard, and the other party responds with "gripe, gripe, gripe, Let's just keep things pleasant"

Sorry for the confessional and I know there are differences between an internet board and a marriage. But in both. there IS a time to "gripe, gripe, gripe"

Mr Rice, I am sure you are also familiar with "a time to rend, a time to sew.....a time to embrace, a time to refrain from embracing"

[Suzanne Metelko]

Dee, what is happening here is called marginalizing. And no matter how gently delivered or how well intentioned the result is the same. Thanks for your post. It needed to be said. Suzanne

[Gary Rice]

I know a thing or two about marginalization, and I would sincerely hope that no one would think that I would have any part of that insideous activity.

To marginalize a thought, an idea, or especially a class of people, is abhorrant and wrong.

As a person who has experienced personal "exceptionalities" in life, I know all that I need to know about being marginalized as a child. My entire career as an special educator has been in defense of greater inclusion for all in the activities of daily life.

What I intended in this discussion, was to convey the hope that people would combine their observations and opinions with more constructive ways to deal with things.

I care not one twit, what position one chooses to take, and I certainly would argue for one's right to express that point of view, so long as it is respectfully presented.

I am also deeply sensitive to the reasonable position expressed that one person's concern can seem like a gripe to another person. This, I understand, and have personally and painfully experienced... by people who just did not "get it" when it was I, who was doing the very justifiable-in-my-eyes "griping".

I simply hope that when we offer our concerns, that we would offer them in an affirmative manner, and where possible, supporting the need for change, with facts.

Just as a personal and general reflection of my opinion: To me, it seems like so many postings have agendas behind them. When some seem to be concerned more for policies, than for people, that deeply concerns me.

Dee, funny you should quote the 3rd chapter of Ecclesiastes, as I've just finished a column using that verse. As you wisely point out, yes, there is indeed a time for all things.

Including, thankfully, a time of peace.

[Suzanne Metelko]

Gary,

I think you've just experienced what Dee was talking about. It's tough to express your opinion and have it dismissed superficially. Simply put - it feels bad. As Will pointed out, for this to be more than a message board, people have to be comfortable posting their opinions. I think calling people out on those opinions is great, but how can we fault each other for having them? As for agendas, there isn't a person posting who doesn't have one and I'll bet that most of us have the same one - what's best for Lakewood. Do we all agree on the answer to that? HA!

Happy Easter.

Suzanne

[Dee Martinez]

Suzanne, I think you touched on the real benefit of these forums. On one hand, they do allow people to raise concerns and even more important they offer a conduit for information where people can research and do their own evaluation.
I have often used comments on the Deck as a jumping off point and link to facts and figures that I wasnt otherwise aware of. Sometimes what Ive found reinforced my views but in all honesty sometimes my mind was changed.

There was a famous book on marketing years ago called "Positioning": What stuck with me was the premeise that "You cant change people's minds, but you can tell them something they dont already know."

On that score, BOTH local sites are doing a great service!

A blessed Easter to all!

[dl meckes]

We don't know what we don't know, so this has been a good place for me to be alerted to and informed about a number of issues and concerns.

I'm never put off by serious discussion, but I also understand Gary's need for more positive expression.

Expressing the feeling of being marginalized is also critical to real communication - sometimes we don't realize that others feel that's how we're coming across. Again, sometimes we don't know what we don't know. We think we're communicating one way only to find out that others' perception is different.

Serious discussion can get tangled up with all Eeyore all the time. For our own mental health and for the health of our city (extrapolate out from here) I think we need to spend as much time in celebration as in critical assessment.

I was looking at the sun rise and I was absorbed with the way the light shone on the snow and ice in the trees. I thought of Gary Rice and I wanted to tell him how lucky I felt to have trees and plants covered in diamonds this morning.

I also wanted to thank Jim DeVito for doing such a good job in looking after the nuts and bolts of running the Deck.

And thanks to Dee Martinez who has been bringing some facts, figures and interpretations to the Deck - I'm far too (lazy) engaged in other things to do that research.

And thanks, as always, to Gary Rice for being one of the good angels on our shoulder. We also had Ellen Malonis performing that job in person, but I hope her perspective still informs our hearts.

[Gary Rice]

To Dee, Suzanne, dl, Will, Jim, Shawn and everyone...

It's good to share the 'Deck with you all.

Let's hear it for all those who brave the storms of inquiry, following their expressions of opinion on this 'Deck!

Thank you, not only for your kind words, but for those other words that might help us all to come closer to a better understanding of each other's thought processes.

Maybe we all do have some kind of an agenda, or if not, at least perhaps, our own frames of reference. Those often do color our thoughts.

Yes Suzanne, I do believe that we all agree on our support for this little old town of ours.

Happy Easter and Happy Springtime to all!