Are teachers underpaid

[marklingm]

I submit and perhaps Mr. Markling can confirm or dispute, that the last of the generation of teachers hired circa 1970 are retiring and being replaced by those hired in 1995-2000, when the FIRST WAVE of 60s-70s hires left. In other words, a true generational shift.

Dee,

I forwarded your inquiry to Treasurer Richard Berdine, who agrees with your general premise.

Matt

I would also urge Mr. Markling, who used this forum during his campaign to jump in and try to improve on my explanation.

* * *

Board members, you are the ones who will be faced with selling any future levies to the public, not me. Your silence is a disappointment to me. you can use this forum as a great chance to educate voters on how the schools actually get funded. Im frankly amazed that none of you have seen fit to defend your stewardship of our money. I dont post on the other local web forum but I do read it from time to time and I havent seen any comment there, either.

Making a case for teachers, as I said, doesnt benefit me personally. If board members or others with a more direct interest in this issue believe its in their interest to use this forum, the time is now. Im done.

Dee,

See above as to your specific question.

As to faculty and/or staff salaries, please understand that no administrator or board member can make any comment on this issue as labor negotiations are ongoing.

As to levy issues, the issue has not been discussed by the Board as a whole during my tenure of just over two months - beyond the fact that there will not be a levy request during the 2007-2008 school year.

As to protecting the public coffers, I can assure you, as a citizen, board member, and Finance Committee Chairperson, that this Board is working very hard at being good stewards for the Lakewood City Schools. One of the benefits of having seasoned board members on our Board is that they bring with them a wealth of experience - which I have found to be very valuable as a new board member. I also believe Richard Berdine to be one of the finest treasurers in the State of Ohio. But, we can always do a better job of sharing all the wonderful things that are currently taking place in the Lakewood City Schools from fiscal responsibility to teaching excellence.

As to use of this forum, I use it often and jump in when I have something that is appropriate for me to add to the discussion. And, I find reading my fellow Lakewoodites' posts, in every discussion forum on the Observation Deck, to be a learning experience.

Matt

[Dee Martinez]

Mr. Markling. Thank you for adding your voice and insight to this discussion
I guess I wasnt clear in what I expressed. I wouldnt expect board members to take a stand on whether they believe teacher compensation to be fair or not during contract talks.

I was speaking more to the STRUCTURE of school funding, of which there is clearly much confusion or gaps in information. I know it all seems very elementary to a school board member but I know people who believe that the Lakewood mayor is in charge of the schools. Things like House Bill 920 and "phantom revenue" are things boards live with day in and day out, but its all Greek to many more members of the public than you realize.
(I also realize you are new to the board)

People in Lakewood are led to believe they pay the highest taxes in the known universe but thats an urban legend. But the school board (and city council) has the perfect forum to counter myth with reality. For some inexplicable reason, they choose not to do so.

I understand that you are currently negotiating contracts with unions and also that there is no levy scheduled for a vote this year. However, Mr George and others are working ahead to lay the groundwork to defeat any levies you may propose and all Im saying is that it shouldnt fall to laypeople like me to explain the facts on the ground.
Like I said, I know you are new to the board, and I thank you again for jumping in. I hope you can convince some of your colleagues to share their wisdom too.

[Bill Call]

Here is the latest five year forecast:

http://fyf.oecn.k12.oh.us/fyforecast/Vi ... t=Lakewood

Lakewood has one of the highest total tax burdens in the known universe. Higher taxes are not the solution.

It's time for the school board to insist on some real concessions. Over the last 20 years or so employees of private companies have accepted pay cuts and benefit reductions to save their jobs and to help their companies survive. Its time for school employees to do the same.

Stop and think about it. The school board is going to ask for $30 million in tax increases at the same time the City is getting ready to ask for $5 million in tax increases. And for what? To finance another round of raises.

Since almost all school and City employees live outside the City what we are really being asked to do is to send $35 million to Avon Lake. To what purpose?

[Jeff Endress]

Since almost all school and City employees live outside the City what we are really being asked to do is to send $35 million to Avon Lake.

So, Bill, how about a differential in wages? Lakewood residets get more, we keep it here, and those out side the district get less?

We have gone around the "highest tax burden in the universe" issue on a number of threads. Millage, without reference to the value being taxed is not an indicator of the tax burden. As I've said before, a lesser millage on a greater tax value can (and does) create a greater tax expenditure. Which is why merely comparing tax RATES without the further examination of taxable values is only half of the equation....then we might as well factor in the entire cost of home ownership, mortgage, commuting, etc. Does it cost more, overall, to own a home in Lakewood as opposed to owning a similar home in a community with a lower millage? If it does, then we should all move to that community. The reality is that, despite the millage, the overall cost of owning a home in Lakewood is less, notwithstanding the high millage, or else everyone would move to Avon.

As far as

Over the last 20 years or so employees of private companies have accepted pay cuts and benefit reductions to save their jobs and to help their companies survive

Is there any private company where the vast majority of the employees have at least a BA., and a great percentage advanced degrees, where this is the reality? How many large law firms, CPA firms, etc. are exacting pay and benefit reductions? How many people in managerial positions in those private companies are giving back? Or do we put the UAW line worker on the same footing as the 30 year teacher with a MA.?

Jeff

[stephen davis]

Over the last 20 years or so employees of private companies have accepted pay cuts and benefit reductions to save their jobs and to help their companies survive.

...only to have their jobs sent to China anyway.


.

[marklingm]

Mr. Markling. Thank you for adding your voice and insight to this discussion
I guess I wasnt clear in what I expressed. I wouldnt expect board members to take a stand on whether they believe teacher compensation to be fair or not during contract talks.

I was speaking more to the STRUCTURE of school funding, of which there is clearly much confusion or gaps in information. I know it all seems very elementary to a school board member but I know people who believe that the Lakewood mayor is in charge of the schools. Things like House Bill 920 and "phantom revenue" are things boards live with day in and day out, but its all Greek to many more members of the public than you realize.
(I also realize you are new to the board)

Dee,

It just so happens that I am currently reading a nice overview on the structure of school funding. It is a 2008 publication from the Ohio School Boards Association entitled, Making $ense out of $chool Finance.

The OSBA publications can be viewed by clicking here.

The OSBA order forms can be viewed by clicking here.

Matt

[Brad Babcock]

Teachers' salaries go up with tenure and CEUs. The fact that they cannot reverse back down the pay scale can be a major problem. As municipal budgets tighten, if a teacher with any significant tenure gets laid-off, their career is effectively over. It is very difficult to get hired in a different district starting part-way up the pay scale when the district can hire fresh graduates at a fraction of the price.

[William George]

A great web site to go to for Tax information is

taxfoundation.org

This is the State and Local (SL) Tax burden (without Federal)
Looks looks like Ohio’s goal is to be #1 (1 is highest)

Ohio is currently #5
I appoligize for the formatting, I couldn't get it right. But it reads

Year - Ohio SL tax - Rank out of 50 - Average of all other states

1970 8.23% 47 9.96%
1971 8.42% 45 10.21%
1972 8.81% 43 10.56%
1973 8.53% 42 10.29%
1974 8.41% 46 10.30%
1975 8.55% 44 10.30%
1976 8.41% 46 10.36%
1977 8.27% 48 10.36%
1978 8.18% 46 9.91%
1979 8.00% 47 9.49%
1980 8.15% 44 9.51%
1981 8.40% 40 9.45%
1982 9.24% 31 9.76%
1983 9.63% 24 9.83%
1984 9.56% 23 9.85%
1985 9.55% 26 9.92%
1986 9.71% 25 10.10%
1987 9.85% 28 10.31%
1988 9.74% 31 10.26%
1989 9.83% 28 10.28%
1990 9.83% 30 10.35%
1991 10.04% 30 10.57%
1992 10.14% 26 10.64%
1993 10.16% 25 10.55%
1994 10.42% 23 10.60%
1995 10.65% 18 10.54%
1996 10.71% 15 10.50%
1997 10.51% 20 10.42%
1998 10.69% 15 10.50%
1999 10.80% 12 10.46%
2000 10.99% 14 10.52%
2001 11.26% 8 10.54%
2002 11.06% 9 10.34%
2003 10.99% 9 10.38%
2004 11.27% 9 10.56%
2005 11.81% 10 10.89%
2006 12.09% 7 10.81%
2007 12.42% 5 10.96%

Source: Tax Foundation calculations based on data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, Department of Commerce

[William George]

The reality is that, despite the millage, the overall cost of owning a home in Lakewood is less, notwithstanding the high millage, or else everyone would move to Avon.

Jeff, just curious how you arrived at the above conclusion. The population of Lakewood has been decreasing for a long long time. People are moving to Avon (and other suburbs). I agree, there are many variables. That is why I find it confusing that you can make the statement that owning a home in Lakewood is less.

[Jeff Endress]

William

There was athread last May, and I did some calculations :

"There have been a number of threads discussing the high tax rates of Lakewood. Some have even suggested that those rates might be the cause of people moving from Lakewood. While certainly our rates are high, anyone who views this as a cause for flight has failed to look at the entire picture.

Lakewood's current tax rate is 2.48, as a percentage of value. It is HUGE! However, while that is one of the highest in the area, the rate, in and of itself is of no great consequence. It only has meaning when applied against the property value. A more expensive property, with a lesser tax rate, will nevertheless result in greater out of pocket costs. But there are additional factors to be considered.

So, let's assume that in order to flee our tax bite, you have decided to move to a community with a much lower tax rate. Preferably, out of Cuyahoga County. You presently own an average Lakewood home, a median value of 153,500.00 with around 1750 square feet on which you put 20% down. You commute to your job in Cleveland, 100 miles per week, burning 4 gallons of gas. Your mortgage, at 6.5% on your 122,800 loan is 776.00 per month. Your taxes are 3806.80 per year (317.23 per month). Not counting insurance, your monthly housing cost is 1093.22.

You find a wonderful home in Avon, same approximate size. Even though the median cost in Avon is 292,500, you've lucked out, and found a house similar in size to your Lakewood property at only 225,000. Avon tax rate is much less than Lakewood. Only 1.66%! You will only be paying 3735 (a yearly savings of almost 72.00), even though the house is more expensive. But, your mortgage payment is going to go up. You now have a mortgage of 180,000, which at the same rate means a monthly cost of 1138.00. Your commute has also gone up. You're now driving 200 miles per week burning 12.00 more gas. For a monthly savings of $6.00, you have now incurred additional costs (mortgage, gas) of $412.00.

If you do the calculations, you will find that just to break even the most you could spend on your Avon home is about 168,000. You may find a condo at that price, but then you have to figure in your monthly association fees. And, it is doubtful that you would find the same amount of home in Avon at 168,000 that you had in Lakewood.

My point? Anyone blaming tax rates alone for an exodus is throwing out a red herring. It's a bogeyman. But, don't trust me. Take a look at housing. Figure out what would be an acceptable house with a lesser tax rate. Run the numbers, including mortgage payments, transportation, etc. If you want to get really artsy, factor in the net loss of return on your down payment vs. projected real estate appreciation. What you'll see is that despite the scary tax rate, Lakewood housing is still one of the best bangs for the buck around.

Jeff


FROM "Tax Rates Driving People out of Lakewood" May 9, 2007

My point then, as now, is that millage rates without reference to the value being taxed are meaningless. Look to communities with lesser tax rates, BUT also look to the median value of housing. You may save on taxes, BUT, that savings will be more than eaten up in increased overall housing costs. You simply can't analyze one piece of the pie, you have to examine the whole thing.

Jeff

[William George]

[Sean Wheeler]

Yikes!

First of all, I am a Lakewood High School Teacher living in Lakewood.

A few things to consider:

1. Will Brown - More than condescending. Teachers currently have to attain a full degree in an academic field AND an additional minor in education coursework. It is now MORE difficult to get a teaching license than it ever has been before. I do not want to bicker about the rest of your statement. Just know that I am highly qualified, very smart, and extremely dedicated.

2. Teacher contracts are based on a nine month term of employment. We are not payed for summer. This is why I tend to not complain about my pay. If I were to factor in my salary over a full year period, (dividing my salary by .75), I understand that I am earning roughly what any entry-level degree holder earns. So two myths need to be eradicated. First, we are not payed for summer. Second, it isn't accurate to simply compare my pay to yours.

3. Didn't Lakewood City Schools promise that the last levy would allow us to operate for three years without asking for another levy increase? Hasn't Lakewood City Schools managed their last levy so well that, in fact, it has been SIX YEARS since they asked for a levy? This is a crucial point in considering any future levy. The district went well beyond keeping their word. (Of course, the way Ohio funds schools has been deemed unconstitutional on four separate occasions and we wouldn't be in any of this mess if we fixed the school funding issue at the state level.)

The original question asked if we are over-payed. This is hard to figure out in a comparative context. I take tons of work home. I deal with issues far beyond what might be covered in a typical corporate job description. The rewards are often more significant than money. The money sometimes feels like a small pittance compared to the importance of educating a generation.

At the end of it all, I guess I have to admit with being satisfied that I knew what I was getting into, I got into it, and I feel that it all balances out. I hope you all feel the same way about your jobs.

Thank you for your continued support of our efforts.