Are teachers underpaid

[Jeff Endress]

From a PD article today:

"Teachers in U.S. public schools are paid about 15 percent less a week than people like accountants, registered nurses and computer programmers, according to the study titled "The Teaching Penalty: Teacher Pay Losing Ground."


"The researchers also addressed the argument that teachers' generous health insurance and pensions make up for their lower pay. When that compensation is added in, teachers still make 12 percent less, the study found."

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindeal ... xml&coll=2

Bill:

Care to comment?

[Tim Liston]

Any "research study" conducted by the Economics Policy Institute that regards unionized labor is wholly lacking in credibility. I'm not weighing in on teacher pay here. My wife is a teacher and my mom was a teacher. But Jeff you need to understand the EPI. And when Bill does weigh in, I'm pretty sure he'll encourage you to "follow the money."

Should this thread be moved to the Global Discussion?

[Justine Cooper]

One of the things Bill Clinton addressed as a priority for Hillary is finding ways to help with loans for social workers and teachers and people in the human service field in inner cities. That would help a lot of people. If you start off at thirty or forty thousand depending on which higher degree you have and you are working in cities that have a lot of issues including violence, excusing some loans could lift a lot of burdens off of people. The ones going to work in the inner city do it for reasons that have nothing to do with money.

Since this topic IS in the Lakewood section, I have a question. I am applying for my student teaching hopefully in the fall and was planning on applying in Lakewood. After I attended an informational session at CSU it was pointed out that Lakewood requires a two-three hour field survey online as well as another requirement additional from all other schools, and that there is still no guarantee you can student teach here if you pass all. The unofficial word is that there is a psychological test that Lakewood requires that no other school requires. As a parent that might be good news to think our teachers are the most mentally stable but I can tell you people are dissuaded from applying to Lakewood because of the "word" of how difficult overall they make it. CSU pointed out the schools that they have a good working relationship with in student teaching and Lakewood was not on it.

I know JOB has talked about incentives for city workers including teachers to live in Lakewood. I couldn't even get a return call to find out about subbing in the Special Ed. area here and I am close to obtaining my license and graduate degree with a high GPA and good experience in alternative schools. Also, co-students that have applied to sub in areas like Berea, Rocky River, etc. all got hired and working immediately and were also dissuaded from applying to Lakewood to sub. These are very qualified people too, going back for their license after being successful in other fields. I am applying to student teach in Westpark.

[Bryan Schwegler]

From a PD article today:

"Teachers in U.S. public schools are paid about 15 percent less a week than people like accountants, registered nurses and computer programmers, according to the study titled "The Teaching Penalty: Teacher Pay Losing Ground."

Not to weigh in on whether they're underpaid or not, but to be honest the same could be said about any job. Every job out there is going to make or less than another type of job.

So any job is going to have a "penalty". For example registered nurses make less than surgeons, computer programmers make less than network engineers, accountants make less than CEOs.

[Dee Martinez]

The EPI is what some would term a "liberal think tank" with strong ties to organized labor, including teacher unions.
What the article didnt address, and I dont know if the study does, is that there is big difference between teacher pay in northern unionized states like Ohio and New York and southern states, where unions are weaker or non-existent.
Adding Texas or Lousiiana to the mix will bring down the average numbers in a hurry

Justine, I would not presume to speak for Lakewood schools as I have no ties other than friends on the "inside"
I do know though that because of the declines in the number of students they have more applicants than positions. I am not even sure they are replacing all the teaches who are retiring from year to year. So youre probably going to have to jump through more hooops to get in. Thats just supply and demand.

[Tim Liston]

These “think tanksâ€￾ conjure up this stuff and put it on the wire. Papers like the PD, and other media pick it up because it fills space, seems credible and costs nothing. That's why the think tanks conduct the “researchâ€￾ in the first place.

[Justine Cooper]

Thanks Dee. I wondered what special secrets that they had since all other school districts in every state seem to need Special Ed teachers but Lakewood, and Lakewood has a reputable Special Ed program from what I hear. I thought it was odd that the number of adult students getting their masters in Special Education were going everywhere but Lakewood and didn't know why. I would be happy teaching in Cleveland too or Berea.

As far as teachers being underpaid I guess it is where you teach. I think the pay sounds fair around here, but if you are teaching in a school in Cleveland that you hear teachers are assaulted (a lot in the paper lately) than they are definitely underpaid. There is no amount of money that you should risk injury and not being able to be there for your own children because of safety issues. I really feel for those teachers.

[Dee Martinez]

Justine, if you are a Lakewood resident, I wouldnt see a problem with you contacting one of the school board members for some more info. They cant legally give you an "in" but they could give you some "inSIGHT" as to where the district is at with hiring.
They are all good people from what I have heard, and since you are a taxpayer as well as a job candidate, I believe they would respond.

Tim, your right. If a press release comes to you from the ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE it sounds impressive. The EPI does good work in persuit of its mission (the "other" side has its share of think tanks too of course) but it is not unbiased.

[Justine Cooper]

Dee,

Thanks. I am impressed with the school board for sure and the schools. But from everything I heard in reference to student teaching in Lakewood and lack of getting a return call with subbing questions I have decided not to apply to teach here.

[Donald Farris]

Hi,
No.

[Katrina Holmes]

Justine,

We must be on the same schedule, school wise. Just so you know I took the "insight" test and it was no where 2 to 3 hours. I heard her say that yesterday and laughed. It took me maybe a hour but more like 45 minutes. And needless to say I am currently doing my practicum in Lakewood with a great teacher. Also did you apply to sub through their online job postings, because I did see postings for subs there? Alot of school are going the route of taking all their applications online, just an FYI.

I know this has nothing to do with the original post, but I wanted to comment about the insight test.

[William George]

The article you are speaking about references a study that was completed last year. I have downloaded a copy of this study and have read through it. The study and the article both mention that each case is different. For example, the study claims average weekly pay for teachers in the U.S is $824 a week, or $42,848 a year. Lakewood teachers average over $62,000 per year, much higher than their stated "comparable" positions in other occupations. Lkwd teachers are required to work no more than 7.5 hour a day or have more than 5 hours of student contact per day. Their contract also states they need not work more than 184 days per year. So be careful when making assumptions about what you read. I spent 3 months completing research on Lakewood Teacher contracts and presented my findings to the Lakewood Board of Education. It shows how teachers are very well compinsated in Lakewood. When counting all benefits, 70% of all teachers in Lakewood are compensated more than $70,000 a year. 17% are compensated more than $100,000 per year. Did you know we have a Gym teacher at the High School who is compensated more than $100,000 per year? I'm not against teachers and happen to think they are special people. But I am convinced Lakewood teachers are very well paid. The subject is much more complex than what was mentioned in the PD article. If you would like a copy of my presentation to the board and/or a copy of the report referredd to in the article, e-mail me at wageorge@cox.net and put LKWD Teacher in the subject line.

[Bill Call]

When counting all benefits, 70% of all teachers in Lakewood are compensated more than $70,000 a year. 17% are compensated more than $100,000 per year. Did you know we have a Gym teacher at the High School who is compensated more than $100,000 per year?

Thank you thank you thank you.

A friend of mine started teaching high school chemistry after 25 years in the private sector. He says he bites his tongue all day when listening to all the complaining that goes on.

He enjoys teaching, likes the kids, and puts all the time off to good use. He worked 50 hours a week 48 weeks a year in the private sector. His master degree in chemistry earned him the right to long hours and a salary of $70,000. As a teacher he makes more and works less.

[Donald Farris]

Hi,
Mr. George, did your compensation numbers include the STRS including the pickup? This is the teachers retirement fund, similar to FICA/Social Security. But in business the employer pays 7.5% and the employee pays 7.5%. Well, for the schools the percent is higher (it's 24%) with the Lakewood schools having chosen to pay all 24% and the teachers pay nothing. I believe originally the schools paid something like 14% and the teachers paid 10% (Anyone know for sure?)
See: http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewt ... 7b976694a3

So, I assume when you calculated our teachers compensation, you took their salary and multiplied it by 1.24 to get their total salary compensation, not counting their many other benefits (e.g. summer off, health care, sick time, anything else?).

When you factor in the total benefits package I firmly believe teachers are not underpaid.

Does anyone know what percent of Lakewood City Schools Teachers actually live in Lakewood?

[Justine Cooper]

Katrina,

Were you at the presentation yesterday? I got there late but the conversations afterward were not supportive in applying to student teach in Lakewood. I did not apply to sub online, I called the person in charge to find out what was required and never got a call back. Not important I don't have time now to sub but I do feel pulled to student teach and thus teach in another community now. Not that I thought I couldn't pass a psychological test, even if I couldn't I would know how to cheat from giving tests during my psychology degree haha. I was told it was a 2-3 hour online test though~

I am curious if the $70,000 salary mentioned above that includes benefits means that salary is counting all medical benefits, etc. because any job you apply to, a salary means salary only. Starting salary might be closer to $40,000 or no? Is the $70,000 for a teacher who has taught for several years?

I do think Lakewood should be comparable to other districts with the retirement pay, especially considering our financial condition. But when you all are counting out the hours that teachers work, are you counting the hours meeting with parents in the evenings, going to workshops on kids' days off, grading papers at home when teachers are home with their families, planning lesson plans, etc.? The requirements for becoming a teacher now are much more strict than they used to be too.

In addition to the thousands of dollars we pay for the education, we take our classes, do field experience, have to have a professional portfolio that is approved, take 2 praxis exams (three to be highly qualified in Special Education), and do a semester of student teaching, which is basically giving up work for three months and paying to learn. We also invest our heart and soul into the children, risk getting assaulted in some situations, get sick more often because we are with children all day, etc. I have never met one person saying they were going into teaching for the money or for the summers off. If they do, they would make horrible teachers. The people I am in class with are mothers and fathers working two and three jobs and going to school because they love children and love teaching, all sacrificing to do it. They should not be reduced to an "average salary" that isn't even true for all. And, like in any field, you will get teachers who go above and beyond, and teachers who do the minimum and shouldn't be there.