Looping in Lakewood Schools

[Vince Frantz]

As my kids near school age, the wife and I have been checking our options for school. Looping is where one teacher stays with the same group of kids for 2 years or more. I have been interested in this for about 8 years but now I am looking more closely at the way our public education system has evolved.

Has any school in Lakewood experimented with looping in the lower grade levels? Does anyone have experience with looping? Does any school offer it now?

[Danielle Masters]

Well it's not exactly looping, but in the gifted program the kids stay with the same teacher for two years. One teacher has 2/3 grades and the other has 4/5. This is the way it is done at Grant, I'm not sure about Lincoln. I know that my boys have really done well having the same teacher for 2 years. I also know that being with the same kids (same grade) for 4 years also helps to foster friendships. It would be nice to see this happen in all classrooms but I would imagine that with Lakewood's high transitory rate it would not work out too well. Hope that helps.

[Bryan Schwegler]

I went to Grant and I had the same teacher(s) in 2/3 and 4/5. From what I remember though, I think Grant was the only school to do that. But it may be different.

[Vince Frantz]

I am wondering why this technique isn't used more often. It seems to cost no more money than the current system. You still have the same student/teacher ratio, but spread across class units vs grade strata.

I would think that teachers would want to do this but so far only a few teachers I spoke with seem to be willing to try. The rest seemed to think it as weird or would make things harder for them.

I haven't spoken to any teachers that have tried it. I wonder if there are any teachers on here that could weigh in on this.

Here is a basic definition with pros/cons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_%28education%29

When you think of all the challenges that teachers are faced with now, it seems like it would be a relief and a benefit to be able to make a real difference in a child's education. There would also be more accountability and commitment from parents and teachers.

[John Walsh]

Both of my children were "looped" at Lincoln Elementary, both in 2/3 and in 4/5 in the GT program.

It may have been because the 2 teachers involved were by far the two best teachers my children have had (Maureen Marshall and Sean McGuan), but there is no doubt the experience we had was top notch.

No offense to the other Lakewood elementary schools, but if you can get your child accepted into GT, try to send them to Lincoln, even though it will be one of the last schools renovated/rebuilt.

[Kate McCarthy]

Both my children have also been "looped" at Lincoln but I'm not sure it's necessarily the best thing for children. If the personality of the teacher and student do not jive it can be an absolute purgatory for the student.... as it is for many students at Lincoln.

[Steve Hoffert]

No offense to the other Lakewood elementary schools, but if you can get your child accepted into GT, try to send them to Lincoln, even though it will be one of the last schools renovated/rebuilt.

Elitism? Other schools have equally good programs. This type of attitude carries over into the students making subclasses out of peers in the same program. They should be working together to better themselves and all of the student body.

[Danielle Masters]

No offense to the other Lakewood elementary schools, but if you can get your child accepted into GT, try to send them to Lincoln, even though it will be one of the last schools renovated/rebuilt.

Elitism? Other schools have equally good programs. This type of attitude carries over into the students making subclasses out of peers in the same program. They should be working together to better themselves and all of the student body.

Steve, thanks for saying what many of us parents may have felt. That's the thing about Lakewood, all the schools offer a quality education. My point in bringing up GT in the first place was because it was the only incident I knew of "looping" in Lakewood schools. Now that my oldest is in Middle school, I know from first hand experience, the kids are getting an equally good education across the board. My son seems to be doing fine as are his peers that came from the other schools.

[John Walsh]

No offense to the other Lakewood elementary schools, but if you can get your child accepted into GT, try to send them to Lincoln, even though it will be one of the last schools renovated/rebuilt.

Elitism? Other schools have equally good programs. This type of attitude carries over into the students making subclasses out of peers in the same program. They should be working together to better themselves and all of the student body.

Steve, thanks for saying what many of us parents may have felt. That's the thing about Lakewood, all the schools offer a quality education. My point in bringing up GT in the first place was because it was the only incident I knew of "looping" in Lakewood schools. Now that my oldest is in Middle school, I know from first hand experience, the kids are getting an equally good education across the board. My son seems to be doing fine as are his peers that came from the other schools.

Thank you all for further confirming why I rarely post on this board although I am a regular reader, because no matter what is said or attempted to be conveyed always gets twisted.

Our children were moved by my wife and I from a private school and sent to Lincoln because they offered an outstanding GT program for children that need that type of education. Our experience at Linclon was the best, and that was the only reason for my comment, it IS an exceptional school. At the time it was the only school that "looped". I have nothing but the best to say for Lincoln, and Emerson for that matter, because we have expereinced both schools first hand. If I made it sound like they were "better" than the other schools it was not intended but they do provide an outstanding program for GT students which is what we were involved in. Most if not all of Lincoln and Grant GT students take advanced and AP college courses once they get to LHS or other High Schools and also score very high on the SAT's and ACT's.

Incientally, the only reason for sending our kids to Lincoln in the first place is because the school you can see from my house (Roosevelt) does not offer the GT program my children participated in, so to be fair I have no clue what kind of school Roosevelt is. I don't however feel that makes me an elitest, just a parent telling someone on this forum our experience with an exceptional elementary school, just like I would post that I think Angelo's has the best pizza, etc.

In closing, I was merely stating that Lincoln provided my children with an exceptional primary education, as did Emerson Middle School. Because of it they are now doing very well at LHS, and we're looking forward to the fast approaching college years (and praying for some scholarships!).

[Stephen Eisel]

Thank you all for further confirming why I rarely post on this board although I am a regular reader, because no matter what is said or attempted to be conveyed always gets twisted.

John, Steve is a cranky ornery old man.... just ignore him

[dl meckes]

Thank you all for further confirming why I rarely post on this board although I am a regular reader, because no matter what is said or attempted to be conveyed always gets twisted.

It probably would have been better if Steve Hoffert asked why you seemed to prefer one school over another - and lots of parents have preferences - before sharing his concerns, but Danielle Masters countered by saying that some parents thought the same thing as Hoffert's posit, but found no basis for that theory. (At least I think that's what she wrote.)

Sometimes when we communicate, either by spoken or written word, we need to clarify our meaning or intent.

A cranky question you could ask Steve Hoffert is, "Why would you choose to interpret what I expressed as elitism?" (I don't know that Hoffert was intending to single you out in expressing frustration with an "attitude" that he has evidently heard before).

I thought your response clarified your initial post and I thought Steve's reaction gave us a window into alternative perceptions.

Actually, Steve's post, coupled with Danielle's post and your follow-up makes me wonder if the schools have a marketing/perception problem that needs to be addressed.

Why do some parents think one program at one school is better than the same program at a different school?

How can that change? How does the School Board encourage school administrators to "get the word out"? What opportunities are now open?

I haven't heard about the "attitude" or perception before Hoffert and Masters mentioned it; why not? (One obvious reason is because I have no children). Is this something that parents, parent associations and schools are talking about? If not, why not? It's obviously out there.

So, Mr. Walsh, I'm sorry you feel your words were twisted at first, but thank you for what you did write, because you may have unintentionally opened another important discussion that may not be at all related to you personally.

[Vince Frantz]

John - I understood your plug for the school you were familiar with. Having no connection with the schools here - I don't have much of a feel for makeup of each one yet.

One thing I have always liked about the looping idea is the notion of the class unit. I think most people look back at the time they spent in school and their group of friends and these relationships seemed to always grow from non-academic connections. Teammates, band mates, choir, clubs, etc. This is all perfectly fine. But I wonder if looped classes develop a special connection around sharing their education vs a special interest? Would these connections last through middle/high school when different social circles evolve?

I think of the small elementary school I came from and how early childhood bonds lasted through high school even as common interests wained. Of course there were only about 40 kids total in my whole class until 4th grade.

I also wonder if looping would help teachers "re-learn" each time they bring a student from first to third grade. Seeing the transition through their eyes again each year. The response I got from my teacher friend was that she would not be good at a lesson until she taught it several times. But - as with all the criticism I have seen on looping - what do you do now? So the kids that got your first crappy lesson are just water under the bridge?

Same with "being stuck with a bad kid/parents". What do you do now? Just ignore them since they are only a few months from being out of your life?

I would think that if parents/teachers both knew that they were about to embark on an extended relationship, they would look at the education in a much different light. Conflicts would be handled differently. Teachers would become almost an extension of the home, instead of temporary steward.

Combined with a higher level of accountability, you might have the framework to actually attract and compensate teachers who have left for higher paying jobs... Or maybe that is just being too optimistic.

[Vince Frantz]

I went to the NEA website to see what they have to say about it and I found this article which shows the "connection" aspect to be pretty solid.

http://www.nea.org/neatoday/0404/feature1.html

[Kate McCarthy]

The concept of looping to create a family unit is a nice idea though I don't think looping is necessary to creating this unit...keeping a group of kids together does the same thing. Until seventh grade my school kept us all together until they busted us up into two groups...one that needed remedial help and one that did not. The loss of cohesion was very upsetting to us. We were a family and didn't appreciate being busted up. This was a parochial school.

When I thought of the concept of looping with one teacher I could only think of two I would have wanted to have more than one year...and they were first and second grade. If I had been stuck with any of my other teachers for more than one year I hate to think of how things would have turned out. Some of my teachers were very substandard. But again, this was a parochial school.

I may be wrong, but I have always assumed the students in Lakewood Schools were looped 2-3 and 4-5 in the gifted programs because of the number of students. I know Franklin looped two grades at one time because of low student enrollment numbers. As I said earlier, if the teacher and student personalities clash, two years together is a very long time.

I do feel there are always better ways to do things, and possibly better models of education, but there are so many variables to consider it is somewhat daunting. And there is never a one size fits all model.

Vince, quite frankly, I would guess that the child of a dad who has spent this much time considering what is best for that child already has most of what he or she needs to succeed -- a parent that cares. And an involved parent is any teacher's best partner in supporting a child's education.

[Vince Frantz]

Vince, quite frankly, I would guess that the child of a dad who has spent this much time considering what is best for that child already has most of what he or she needs to succeed -- a parent that cares. And an involved parent is any teacher's best partner in supporting a child's education.

Thanks for that comment! I have to admit that I am not too stressed about my own kids. My interest in the system stems back to about 1998 - before I was even married. I am looking at this as a citizen of Lakewood and a taxpayer as well. I understand that each solution is not good for every kid. But it seems like teachers would want to create an environment that increases the chances of the students to make real progress. If improvements to the system did not carry an extra cost burden, then it seems like it should be implemented at will. If there is no state mandate banning looping and it seems to help the gifted kids, why not use it more for the regular kids? Am I misreading the the term "gifted"?

Also - I should note that I hated my English teacher when I was a freshman. If someone told me I would have her for 4 years I would have reacted pretty negatively. But luckily - I did have her for 4 years straight and she became a huge influence in my life. By my junior year she was feeding me books and materials that were of great interest.

Kids get stuck with back-to-back bad teachers as it is and there is nothing you can do about it now. It seems like there is little incentive for parents to work things out with a teacher. My mom (4th grade teacher, 35 years) tells me about how many parents complain to her about her assignments, rules, etc. Seems like parents have evolved into "agents" these days (not a blanket statement of course).