Hatred on the Lakewood Observation Deck

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Fellow Observers,

It has come to my attention that there is quite a bit of negativity on the deck. It seems that posters here cannot debate in a healthy manner, and resort to name calling, childish games and more offensive tactics to stir the negative emotions.

I wanted a good debate and fellow Deck poster Stephen Eisel represented the opposing side of the debate. The debate started off pretty well, I'll let you be the judge to how it progressed.

My first post can be seen here. It's the third post from the bottom. It was a emotionally fueled post, but I stick to my words because I won't go back and edit things to twist this. But not everyone refrains from twisting things apparently.

Debate on Iraqi War

and it ended with this post.

Step 1: Honesty- Stop watching Al Jazeera and CNN. Most Americans will kick your a$$ when you tell them "You (US) trample over the hearts and hopes of the globe and gain riches and power for yourself and growing ego's"

Step 2: Faith-God loves all Americans (including the Ahteist) but He hates whiney arrogant europeans. just sayin

Step 3: Surrender- You are now in America. It is now ok to love this country. She is now giving you shelter and a better life.

Step 4: Soul Searching- Everyone's poop smells.

Step 5: Integrity- It is ok to watch Fox News and form your own opinion.

Step 6: Acceptance- Most Americans hate arrogant foreigners.

Step 7: Humility- Nobody gives a **** that you are from Europe.

Step 8: Willingness- Vote for anyone But Dennis.

Step 9: Forgiveness- It is ok to love this country. Only arrogant europeans will hate you.

Step 10: Maintenance- It is ok to watch the movie Patriot and root for America.

Step 11: Making Contact- Go to a Toby Keith concert and meet some real republicans.

Step 12: Service- Volunteer to be a sparring partner for Mike Tyson.

I just wanted to thank Jim, dl, and the editors and advisors and webmaster of the LO Deck to set the standard of sticking by your post because your name is attached to it.

I will let you all be the judge of the quote above me.

For now, I am leaving the LO Deck and will not post here until this matter is resolved and post fueled by prejudice, hatred, and feelings of superiority cease. I will take the higher road.

Take care,
The "arrogant foreigner that most americans hate"
Ivor K.

[Stephen Eisel]

At least tell them how it all started...

Ivor wrote: Stephen, face it.

Every one of your claims has been proven wrong by the UN.

You can believe all the lies you want but they are wrong morally and factually.

I know you're not the type to admit that maybe you've been deceived for the past....8 years.

It's alright. I can give you a 12 step program that will get you to realize and cure just how brainwashed you are.

Step 1: Honesty- Stop watching Fox, reading the white house briefings and realize that even though the new press secretary is hot, she's being told what to say. Eliminate the lack of honesty in your information getting.

Step 2: Faith-I don't know what faith you are and it really doesn't matter because no religion or faith would let you reach a peaceful afterlife if you believe that bombing children is justifiably by International Laws that we happened to break ourselves.

Step 3: Surrender- Don't be afraid to back out of a debate. Sometimes posting goofy off-the-subject things for giggles will backfire and people will think that you're not educated and mature enough to debate with a 18 year old.

Step 4: Soul Searching- Keep taking this test until you get the right answer

Step 5: Integrity- Do you really want to be hated by the world for one mistake..I mean vote...or two? Everyone deserves another chance even if it's a third try

Step 6: Acceptance- The fun one. You're finally on the right track when you get to the point where you can accept that illegal War is not the answer and I've been proving you wrong post after post.

Step 7: Humility- Laugh at yourself for being a Elephant. Why be a Lazy elephant- being a Jackass is 350 million times more fun.

Step 8: Willingness- Vote for Obama in 2008.

Step 9: Forgiveness- Sharon, Justine, Jim and I really did mean the best in proving you wrong.

Step 10: Maintenance- Elect another Democrat into office next election.

Step 11: Making Contact- Go watch Obama speak. Buy a sticker and yard sign and drive your Republican neighbors insane. Trust me it's a BLAST.

Step 12: Service- Volunteer at Kucinich's office. Wake up and realize that he didn't put Cleveland into bankruptcy. Or, volunteer for a Democratic President hopeful to help him (or her) get more votes and to spread good will and peace amongst the world.


Stephen,
Hang that up on your fridge and keep me posted on your progression. You can always count on a Donkey when the lifting gets too heavy. Elephants just stink and poop everywhere. Plus, Elephants are afraid of mice, so you're better off counting on a Donkey because he won't abandon you because of his fear of dealing with problems and answering questions truthfully.
I wish you all the best in your road to recovery-
Ivor

Ivor wrote: This country and it's people have turned selfish, arrogant, blind and numb thanks to leaders that display all of those traits and more.

I spent an hour talking to my friend who is studying abroad in Germany at the moment (he lives in Lakewood and graduated with me) and he said that the Germans fear expressing and having any patriotic thoughts about anything other than soccer because they will be labeled Nazi's.

In a country where you treat your flag better than your people, and your wallets are more important than your family and neighbors, you are labeled patriotic and as heroes. You die hard republicans trample over the hearts and hopes of the globe to gain riches and power for yourself and your growing ego's.

You die hard republicans should be ashamed at your unmoral and unjust thoughts and behaviors. Thanks to your leader, the Constitution is the very thing keeping you sane and believing that this is just and moral. You abuse the very document that keeps this country going and makes it a great place to live in and you don't even realize it.

I can't wait to get the "well, I can stand for my own ground because the constitution and bill of rights entitle me to those beliefs" excuses. And you're right. But the Constitution has become the deciding factor for all of our moral and just behaviors and beliefs.

The Constitution will not make you a better person and will not promise you happiness and a good after life. How can you look in the mirror and be proud that your personal vote contributed to the very mess that the globe is in right now. It's not the world's fault that they hate you, it's yours. It's Bush's fault and you are the one that gave him power. How can you call yourself a "Good Christian" with "Moral Christian Beliefs" when you are not making this world a better place to live in? When you are causing the deaths and suffering of thousands across the globe.

Hide behind your new Bible, The Constitution, like cowards and be proud to be the person who contributes to the murder of millions, the starvation, suffering, poverty and rotting of nations across the globe, just for the sake of your own personal gain.

In the end your bigotry and selfishness will come back to bite you in the behind. Your tax cuts will bring you a fake happiness, and you will have to live with the guilt that millions are starving and dying because you're too selfish to contribute to health care to the neighbors within your own country and to the peace process across the globe.

[Bryan Schwegler]

I do agree Ivor that the Deck can become overwhelmed by negative nasty people. I can think of one in particular who normally immediately resorts to name calling and twisting of words. This very person spent weeks during the election cycle posting some of the most nasty, libelous, personal attack-filled posts I've almost ever seen on a forum.

However, as Jim and dl, both pointed out, people can say whatever they want here.

I don't necessarily agree with that, personally I think there should be some degree of civility enforced, but those are the rules of the road here on the Deck.

Generally I've found that to avoid the hateful people, you need to avoid the threads they participate or gravitate to. I really try. However sometimes the people post such hateful, rude things I just am forced to respond. I really do wish this board had "ignore" feature like so many others so I could just block the drivel and avoid the hate mongers.

Ivor, I would hate to see you leave the Deck, I really enjoy your posts. I would say just ignore those who are negative, mean people. The more the trolls are ignored, the sooner they go away because they get bored.

[sharon kinsella]

Ivor - I'm so sorry - no one on here but you know what it feels like to be a child and watch the people you love die around you.

Honey, I am so sorry this happened to you.

[Ryan Salo]

Ivor,

While I agree this site gets into personal attacks too often I was amazed that you left out your post to Stephen. To me it makes a huge difference in the validity of your post. You are in effect personally attacking Stephen without mentioning the fact that you hit him too.

Lets stop acting like kids and posting all this to get revenge. If you want people to beg you to stay private IM them. Fortunately this is a free country and an open forum, you can stay if you want.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Ivor

This story reminds me of a poster that once called the Superintendent a fascist. There was a little more than a tad of fire and emotion in your post as well.

While I agree that negativity, can kill a board or a discussion. A good light and lively debate can open one up. There are legends on this board, and others, by the fire they bring. In the end we are all framed by our words and deeds.

While you look to leave the Deck, I would challenge you in a different way. Work to center the board and clean it up, if that is what you feel it needs. Gary Rice, has slowed in posting for various reasons, but again the most positive voice in Lakewood is now silent. So you leave, Gary leaves, and on and on. It becomes a slippery slope, and Lakewood becomes seen as an angry nasty place.

But that slope is not as slippery as policing, editing, not allowing, not posting, or deleting views of Lakewoodites. The simple and most important statement of our Mission Statement is knowing Lakewood better than anyone has known their city. Well, sometimes it is not so pretty, sometimes it is not so friendly. In the end it is Lakewood at it is who we are and who we are perceived as.

Censorship vs Emotion, Editing vs Open Thought, it is all so tough.

Ivor, I know how dedicated you have been to this project. Been with almost since day one. We have all grown, and evolved. I would hope you dedication to this project would continue and that you would not allow a few to rule the school yard, especially if you think they are wrong.

In the end we must all do what is right for us. I would hope you reconsider. We need every positive voice we can get in Lakewood, and on the Deck. I cannot overstate how many people see the Deck, and read it as well as you or I. Not the words, but the thoughts, emotions, and heart of this city.

Since this project started, only one person has been banned for copyright infringement after being repeatedly warned. Let me assure you he had done far worse, but in the end that is what got him banned. We started "open source" and did find that to be a little crazy, and in-fact because of our use of real names, "open source" did not fit our model anyway. So four years ago we coined "civic source" "civic journalism." In other words, people, residents, business owners, government employees willing to take ownership of their ideas and thoughts had a home here in the Observer.

Ivor, you tell me. What actions would you want DL and/or the board to take?


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[Rick Uldricks]

deleted

[Joe Ott]

there is quite a bit of negativity on the deck.

I don't know about the rest of the thread Ivor is referencing and won't takes sides, but Ivor's right about the negativity. It's one of the reasons I don't bother reading/posting here much any more. It has become rather "buzzy" around here.

It's the same four or five people everyday bantering back and forth. What's the point? Nothing is ever resolved.

The outright meanness before the elections was the icing on the cake. One person in particular turned this board into nothing more than the buzz with names. Constant attacks on everybody and everything. Who wants to bother with that?

I know a few people who have quit wasting time with the LO. I suspect there are more and will be more until it can be taken seriously.

[Jim O'Bryan]

I know a few people who have quit wasting time with the LO. I suspect there are more and will be more until it can be taken seriously.

Joe

While I agree with every post in this thread, I have to ask, how the statement above ever works?

Or more to the point what steps should be taken?

Of course I look at this far different than most. I get to see and feel the impact, that this project is making in this city and now other cities. I have spoken with people all over the USA that read the board. Nearly 3 million hits a month, 1/4 from outside of Lakewood.

Recently, we were working with a city outside the county on starting an Observer. They loved it, and even brought up a couple conversations that had Ken and I falling out of our chairs. Advisory Board member attends many social functions, and is always amazed at who "does not read the Deck," but can quote thread after thread after thread.

So I ask you, as I asked Ivor what do we do? How do we "improve" the level of discussion and discourse on the Deck? When do we slap on the wrist? How can WE make this better for all?

I agree, the war, taxes, jobs, unemployment, age, politics, health, future, crime, pollution, have made us edgy. To a certain extent it has polarized the country and the community. How do we nullify, do we?

As always there are suggestion boxes everywhere, we see this as a city project, we are open to any and all suggestions.


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[J Hrlec]

I think this is really is like TV, Radio, or any other media... if you can't handle certain content stay away from it. If it becomes to much your only recourse is staying away from it, not restricting it. When you restrict these things, you lose something important...freedom.

There are topics which would make me feel the same anger, however, I simply move on and forget about them. Just my 2 cents...

[Dee Martinez]

It's the same four or five people everyday bantering back and forth. What's the point? Nothing is ever resolved.
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With all due respect its an internet board. Its not the UN General Assembly. We can discuss on the internet, we resolve through the ballot box or by making changes in our own behavior.
Both boards are places where open minded people can consider other arguments and where closed minded people can have their own deep thoughts validated.

Having personally been the recipient of Ivors barbs (the predictability of my opinions was my sin) I find the selective sensitivity amusing. But its just a board and its very easy to hit that little "x" in the top right corner and walk away for a while.

[Bill Call]

Both boards are places where open minded people can consider other arguments and where closed minded people can have their own deep thoughts validated.

Having personally been the recipient of Ivors barbs (the predictability of my opinions was my sin) I find the selective sensitivity amusing. But its just a board and its very easy to hit that little "x" in the top right corner and walk away for a while.

I think I am guilty of seeking to have my own thoughts validated. I guess by definition that makes me closed minded. On the other hand I have a deep ideological belief in the libertarian philosophy that underlies most of my posts. That belief did not come easily or casually and so is not easily or causally discarded.

Just to stir things up:

It seems that liberals are very illiberal people.

They think that every opposing thought or opinion is not based on a reasoned argument but based on the meanness of the person holding that different opinion. Liberals think that people who believe differently aren't just wrong they believe they are evil.

Free choice in schools: You hate children!

Let the buyer beware: You hate consumers!

Lower taxes and increase take home pay: You want to starve the poor!

Privatize public services: You hate public employees!

Let people experience failure: You are mean spirited!

Let people experience success: You are selfish!

A riddle: 60 years ago Hong Kong was the poorest place on Earth, populated by refugees. 60 years ago the palistinian refugee camps were the poorest place on Earth, populated by refugees. 60 years later Hong Kong is one of the worlds richest cities and palistine is one of the poorest, most violent and most corrupt.

Which community received all the help?

[Joe Whisman]

Let's hear it for free speech. I am glad that people can say whatever they want to say. I would not post here if people could hide behind false names. The Observation Deck is a valuable tool that I have used to learn about my city. I have seen both good and bad. I find it helpful to know who is a bigot and who is not.
Negativity is part of life, deal with it. We are for the most part all adults here. When we don't agree it is ok. When someone is talking and you are thinking about what you are going to say next, you have stopped listening.

[Bret Callentine]

It seems that posters here cannot debate in a healthy manner, and resort to name calling, childish games and more offensive tactics to stir the negative emotions.

Hide behind your new Bible, The Constitution, like cowards and be proud to be the person who contributes to the murder of millions, the starvation, suffering, poverty and rotting of nations across the globe, just for the sake of your own personal gain.

In the end your bigotry and selfishness will come back to bite you in the behind. Your tax cuts will bring you a fake happiness, and you will have to live with the guilt that millions are starving and dying because you're too selfish to contribute to health care to the neighbors within your own country and to the peace process across the globe.

Would anyone like to start by properly defining "healthy debate"?

[James Mullen]

I am fairly new to the deck, and believe this is the best outlet for people of the City of Lakewood, regardless of their opinions or views to have a voice. It is important we allow this. I commend Jim and others involved with deck to create such an enforcement. In my opinion what has been going on in this particular topic is what makes me so proud at times to be who I am, and where I am. I am not going to express my personal beliefs on the quarrel that has transpired, I just wanted to take a moment and throw out my support for the way this forum is run. I hope everyone continues to post. I think we all would agree that only through such great debate, and difference does change really happen.