Mardi Gras Madness At City Hall

[Brad Hutchison]

Because a teacher with a masters degree is not a better teacher because of the masters degree. One of the great falacies of modern education is that attending that six week condensed masters program over a couple of summers makes a better teacher.

Six week M.Ed program? Wish I'd known about that before I went full time for 12 months to get mine. Which was a complete waste because schools won't hire teachers with Masters degrees anyway because they have to pay them more. They'd rather hire Bachelor's degrees.

[Dee Martinez]

Because a teacher with a masters degree is not a better teacher because of the masters degree. One of the great falacies of modern education is that attending that six week condensed masters program over a couple of summers makes a better teacher.

Six week M.Ed program? Wish I'd known about that before I went full time for 12 months to get mine. Which was a complete waste because schools won't hire teachers with Masters degrees anyway because they have to pay them more. They'd rather hire Bachelor's degrees.

Typical comment from someone else just trying to rip off the taxpayers. Get in line at Wal-Mart. High school calculus teacher? Part-time stocker/cashier? No difference. Youre all just interchangeable "workers" anyway.

[Brad Hutchison]

There seems to be a lot of talk on this thread about cutting wages and now there is a discussion about the number of people showing up for the pathetic Walmart jobs.

Working for Wal-Mart is an honest way to support oneself and one's family. I doubt they would appreciate their jobs being described as "pathetic."

[Stephen Eisel]

All points of view should be welcome. Mr Call may not be black and white but his starting point of view is universally that all public employees, bar none, are basically underworked and overpaid parasites.

I have never any of that.

What I have said ( in different ways) is even though the City has 30% fewer citizens:

1. Lakewood has more employees than it did 20 years ago
2. Lakewood has more employees than many peer cities
3. Some City departments have high absentee rates
4. That lead to double digit increases in overtime costs
5. Even as city services decline
6. And that there is a better answer than:
7. Raise taxes to fund business as usual.

What really upsets people is when I add:

City employees should pay 50% of the health insurance premium and that the policy should have a reasonable level of co-pay and deductable

AND

Three years without a raise is a sacrifice made by millions of people and is a sacrifice that should be made by City employees

AND

There is no reason for government employees to be immune from economic reality.

Where is the accountability? (by the city)

[Dee Martinez]

There seems to be a lot of talk on this thread about cutting wages and now there is a discussion about the number of people showing up for the pathetic Walmart jobs.

Working for Wal-Mart is an honest way to support oneself and one's family. I doubt they would appreciate their jobs being described as "pathetic."

Lets be honest with each other and ourselves. If you are working at Wal-Mart to support yourself and your family, something has gone wrong. (There are exceptions. Wal-Mart can be a career track for some) People work at Wal-Mart to pay off bills, make a little extra for life's niceties. No one makes their mortgage at WM.
The jobs are NOT "pathetic." But in my experience, they ARE "disposable". The company considers the workers transient and temporary. The workers consider the job the same way. The dance we do is to try to get SOME committment out of employees that WE pay little or no commitment to.

Thats my issue. Wal-Mart wants the public to think its GM, but its employees KNOW its Arbys.

When John Smith or Jane Jones takes a job at Wal-Mart, its a marriage of convenience. Both can and do end the association on a moment's notice.

The point is that we shouldnt confuse the temp-model Wal-Mart job with something so permanent as a police officer, a teacher, or even a dedicated civic clerical worker. Different jobs, different people, different demands, different expectations. Lumping a cop with a Wal-Mart applicant is beyond silly in my estimation.

[Stephen Eisel]

http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStores ... o?catg=605


http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStores ... o?catg=607


http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMStores ... o?catg=606

[Lynn Farris]

With all due respect Dee, I think you may have missed the point that Don was making. We are in a horrible economic downturn. People are losing their jobs in NE Ohio right and left. People are being downsized. Companies that used to employ many clerical workers, accountants, IT execs, mangers are being shipped to China or other countries.

The 6,000 people that are applying for the Walmart jobs are NOT all part-time student employees or housewives wanting a little extra pin money for the holidays. This may be a college educated teacher who can't get a job in NE Ohio. It may be an exec who has been downsized or the head of the accounting department.

In fact many of my children's friends who have recently graduated from college in the past few years with good grades and resumes are being forced into jobs as waitresses, retail and nanny's to pay off school loans, pay the rent and eat.

I hate to tell you Dee - but many people who work at Walmart - this is the way they are paying the mortgage and putting food on the table for their families.

And I hate to tell you, in the private sector Bill is right. Employees are forced to pick up more and more of their own health care costs. Benefits are lower and co-pays are much higher. I wonder how many people in NE Ohio make as much money today as they did 5 years ago in real dollars? And that isn't counting the cost of living. With the cost of living with health care and taxes increasing - I would venture that only a few are keeping up. JMHO.

[sharon kinsella]

Stephen -

You really believe that crud?

I've got a bridge to sell you in Manhattan. The reality is that WE pay the benefits for WalMart workers. Many full-time employees earn so little that they qualify for food stamps and Medicaid.

Try paying a $300.00 a month fee for healthcare on minimum wage. Not a lot to feed your family with? Maybe if it were free healthcare - still not enough to feed your family.

I don't know how to do a website link on here, but go to www.walmartwatch.com.

I've been following WalMart for a long time and they are disgusting.

There is a ton of other stuff out there about WalMart, just google them and don't just look at their PR hype.

[sharon kinsella]

Brad -

Did you see anywhere that I said anything about the workers at WalMart not doing a hard day's work. Never did, never will.

WalMart is disgusting.

Lynnn -

Do the math and figure out how people pay a mortgage on minimum wage. Milk is $2.99 a gallon for pete's sake.

[Stephen Eisel]

Yes, I do believe that Wal-Mart offers some benefits to its employees. It may be a pathetic job by your standards but for some it is an opportunity to improve their own situation.

[Lynn Farris]

First no one is suggesting that City workers get paid minimum wage. I think we have a living wage law in Lakewood.

Secondly - yes, a great many people are paying the mortgage on minimum wage. Maybe they have a room mate (or spouse). Maybe they are working two jobs or three jobs. Most likely they don't have health care and God help them if they get sick. Maybe they are getting food stamps, maybe they are living in Section 8 housing.

Maybe they have cashed in their 401K's from their previous good jobs. Maybe they are getting more into debt every year with no way out - they are living on credit cards. Why do you think we are having record foreclosures and bankruptcies? Of course the Bush administration made it much more difficult for the average citizen to declare bankruptcy.

Maybe I'm just frustated today - but I keep hearing sad stories of plants closing and being shipped abroad. I talk to people every day that are losing their jobs and are scared. They are being forced to help build plants in China and train their foreign replacements in some cases. I spend my day on the phone to India, the Phillipines, Mexico and Costa Rica getting support for my clients. Five years ago these companies were all in the US supplying jobs for US citizens. And these are not low-skilled factory jobs. These are customer service and computer support jobs for IBM, HP, Dell and other major firms. I'll stop ranting and go back to hold for the Phillipines.

[sharon kinsella]

Lynn -

You're right, it's a mess. I worked on women's employment issues for most of my life. A lot of it was with dislocated workers and people trying to get off assistance.

20 years ago it was pretty easy to get a decent job. Now they're all gone.

There needs to be a cohesive plan to fix our mess.

Maybe people in Lakewood can decide to not buy foreign goods. Also, I've been on my own little campaign of calling companies (getting around the customer service people in India is a trip). I tell them I will not ever buy their product again if it has to be serviced outside the country.

We could ask our city purchasing department to make sure that goods bought with our tax dollars are made here (and no parts made in other countries).

There are a lot of things that we can do as a city.


T

[Stephen Eisel]

Maybe I'm just frustated today - but I keep hearing sad stories of plants closing and being shipped abroad. I talk to people every day that are losing their jobs and are scared. They are being forced to help build plants in China and train their foreign replacements in some cases. I spend my day on the phone to India, the Phillipines, Mexico and Costa Rica getting support for my clients. Five years ago these companies were all in the US supplying jobs for US citizens. And these are not low-skilled factory jobs. These are customer service and computer support jobs for IBM, HP, Dell and other major firms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7VAnby4a6k

[Brad Hutchison]

Brad -

Did you see anywhere that I said anything about the workers at WalMart not doing a hard day's work. Never did, never will.

WalMart is disgusting.

Sharon, I didn't mean to imply that you had said that. But just because you hate Wal-Mart doesn't make a job there pathetic. I just meant that if you had said something like that about my job - even something as mild as Bill belittling M. Ed. degrees earlier in this thread - I would have been offended. I doubt that was your intention, I just think your hatred of Wal-Mart as a corporation affected your word choice.

As Lynn said, a lot of people with a lot of skills are forced to do other things, and it's not our place to pass value judgments on what they do. I have a B.A. and an M. Ed. and I manage a wine bar. I'm lucky, because I enjoy the work - even though some may consider it "beneath" me.

Now, what's this thread about?

[Dee Martinez]

Lynn you pretty much validated what I said. Sure a college grad with a teachng certificate might work at WM for a while but its not permanent. And if anyone really looks at a $8/hr WM job as a replacement for a $20/hr factory job, that speaks to a bigger problem.

I dont know your recent day to day experience with entry level retail and service sector help, but that IS what I do. And I can tell you that turnover and churn are what keep me awake at night. Your $8 employee will work for you until the $9 job comes around. If you are lucky you may get a day or two notice. I wont even get into the issues related to short-term, no-committment employment, like absenteeism,theft, etc Ask any retail manager. They will tell you they worry less about customer "shrink" and more about the employees walking off with stuff. Again I ask, is THAT how you want to run your city and schools?

In any event bringing public sector jobs down to the lowest common denominator doesnt seem like a winning plan.