Three Lakewood Organizations Receive Funding

[Jeff Endress]

Bill

I love it when you talk in absolutes. Only black and white, no gray. You say that "profit making" businesses recieve no governmental subsidies. You're ignoring the realities of the aid that is provided. I know it helps in making your point, but let's at least try to be accurate.

So, what about the infastructure that Government provides to lure in businesses, new roads, etc. Does that count? How about the TIF's? Do those count? What about the other incentives that are used to land a new Honda plant? That probably doesn't count either. How about a 1/4 percent sales tax increase to build a medimart? Grants for storefront renovation? Tax breaks for machinery purchases? Favorable depreciation tax treatment? The list goes on and on.

You are certainly entitled to opine that tax dollars shouldn't be used to support the arts. But to justify that opinion based on "profit making" businesses doing without such support really strains your credibility. That support not only exists, but exists in substantially greater amounts than any pittance given to the arts.

Jeff

[Todd Shapiro]

As sad as it may be to those in the Arts community most of us really aren't that concerned if the Cleveland Orchestra is there or not.

you're making a general assumption. Just because YOU don't care about the arts and aren't in the arts community doesn't mean others that aren't don't care either.

Ivor,

You've probably got me figured out dude, I do tend to make a lot of general assumptions and I don't care about the arts!

However, I will try to back my assumptions up with a little bit of common sense. I don't know the exact number (maybe Jeff Endress would be willing or able to provide it ) of subscribers to the Cleveland Orchestra. Between the Severence Hall and Blossom seasons I am going to guess the number to be around 5,000. again someone please correct me if I am wrong. Now there are nearly 3 million people in the Cleveland-Akron seven-county metro area and if the 5,000 number is correct less than 2/10 of a percent of the population cares enough about the Cleveland Orchestra to put their money where their mouth is.
Again Jeff ( I don't mean to pick on you but your are the only one who stated that they are a subscriber to the Orchestra) if there was not an Orchestra would you spend that money elsewhere in the community or would you tuck it away in your mattress? Also any idea how many of the subscribers are out of towners or from outside the seven county area spending money that would not otherwise be spend in Cleveland?
So Ivor (and anyone else who disagrees with me) can you please make the case for spending our tax money on something that less than 1/2 of a percent of the population chooses to support with THEIR OWN money. If the arts were so popular they would not need government funded "life support."

[Brad Hutchison]

According to the Cleveland Orchestra's 2005-2006 Annual Report, paid attendance that season at Severance totaled 183,371. Blossom attendance was 103,097.

I think it's fair to say that any authority would consider the Cleveland Orchestra to be among the top 5 in the world. Doesn't civic pride play into this at all? Isn't it enough to support something that gives us a little prestige? Something that we're just proud of, whether or not it puts money into our pockets?

If you've been, to either Severance or Blossom, you understand. If you haven't been, go, just once, before you're willing to do away with it.

[Jeff Endress]

Todd

Some facts...as best as I can determine.
Severance Hall seats 2100. The normal Orchestra series has the same concert repeated Thurs, Fri., Sat.
Assuming a sellout (not always the case) any given concert would have 6300 attending. The Orchestra has a 24 programs (72 concerts). For a total potential attendance per season of about 150,000. Not sure how many distinct individuals this represents, partial series subscribers single tickets etc.
Orchestra also has a number of other concerts which are not a part of the subscription series: Children's concerts, Educational, Family and Holiday...
Small group (Rheinberger Hall) concerts, Youth Orchestra Concerts which make up another 43 dates. Would be conservative to figure that this represents another 40,000 in attendance. Again, not sure how many distinct persons would be within that number.

The Orchestra played 15 concerts at Blossom last year. The Pavilion seats 5200 and the lawn accommodates another 13000. Potential attendance for any given concert about 18000. Potential season long attendance 270,000. Usually the Blossom concerts are not sold out, (Except for the 4th of July/fireworks) but it wouldn't surprise if the total Blossom attendance was around 75000-100,000. Again, hard to tell how many distinct individuals this represents.

I don't think it would be too far off, given the repeated concerts, persons with split subscriptions and single concert goers to figure that on a seasonal basis that around 30,000 distinct individuals (probably many more) go to a Cleveland orchestra concert yearly.

As to your question about discretionary spending, if the Orchestra were not available, I would spend that money to travel for a weekend to a location where one was available.

As to the argument for the supporting an asset that less than 100% of the taxpayers enjoy (and for the purposes of this discussion, it really should be limited to SMOKING taxpayers), it is the same argument that can be made for the Zoo, museums, the Metroparks Winterhurst....any form of recreation supported by taxpayer funds. I stopped using the zoo once my kids grew up. What was the attendance this year? I don't ice skate, but winterhurst is a black hole for my tax money that supports those that do. Don't play fast pitch baseball, but my taxes maintain Kaufman do a couple dozen games can be played over the course of the summer by a couple hundred people. The list is probably never ending.

And so Todd, the answer is really simple. We don't subsidize these amenities so that it's cheaper for some poor schmuck to attend a concert, see a play, watch the monkeys at the zoo, play a round at big met, watch the sunset at Lakewood Park....We do it because in the overall scheme of things, all of these amenities make the area a desirable one in which to live. Sometimes it affects me directly. Sometimes I pay for something I never will use. But if every amenity is expected to be supported by only those that use it, it's a pretty sure bet that there will soon be no parks, no museums, no zoos, no public pools, no schools, no amenities.

Jeff

[Brad Hutchison]

To clarify the numbers I posted above:

The Severance Hall attendance of 183,371 represents 120 concerts, for an average of 1528, about 73% capacity.

The Blossom total of 103,097 consists of 22 concerts, an average of 4686.

I agree with you Jeff. The arguments others are making about the Orchestra could be made about many institutions. For me, it's a question of identity as much as anything else.

[Bill Grulich]

[dl meckes]

The Secret Arts Star Chamber Committee

Bill Call, I call B.S.

You certainly know how to turn a phrase.

How exactly would you set up the distribution of funds raised by this smoking tax?

Would you like to have the County Commissioners dole out the dollars? Do they have any expertise in this area?

Does it make sense for a board of people who know something about arts groups in Cuyahoga County to figure out how to distribute the funds?

Since these people have been named publicly and the process for applying for funds has been made public, how is it that the board is a Secret Star Chamber?

[sharon kinsella]

While I am a not a huge consumer of the arts, I do sometimes go to Blossom and I attend Cleveland Public Theater quite often.

You could get rid of all the sports centers and indoor concert venues and it wouldn't make any difference with me, but it would to a lot of people.

The one thing no one has talked about so far, is that access to the arts and to museums enhances children's education. The Cleveland Orchestra, some plays at Playhouse Square make some performance free or very, very cheaply for Metro Cleveland area students. The zoo has a free day every Monday so that parents that can't afford it, can take their kids. The museums have free or reduced rate programs that many school children attend with their class.

The arts are an essential part of any students education. It enhances their lives, it let's them have a glimpse at the world beyond the smoke stacks of the flats. They help with math theory, reading comprehension and inspire creativity in children and adults.

The arts are an intrinsic part of our culture and we would be so much less without them.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Sharon,

I was waiting for someone to say that arts are an important part of a childs education.

it's far more than coloring between the lines, it's another form of expression which is vital for any human being.

it serves as an escape for many young people, like myself, who sometimes feel overwhelmed with college and growing up.

Not to mention the kids that come from broken homes. Some go into sports, some join the school band and some become writers, photographers, painters. The ones that choose the other road, usually end up in jail or as delinquents.

America needs to get over the fact that not everyone wants to be a coal miner, factory worker, lawyer and salesman. Bill, not everyone wants to sit in front of a computer screen and crunch numbers and worry about where every cent of their taxes ends up.

....wheresabe.com anyone?

[Stephen Eisel]

[ryan costa]

The orchestra would do just fine if they paid the hired help a little less. If The first violinist cost$100,000 per year instead of $200,000 the orchestra could actually make a profit.

And then the Cleveland Orchestra could join the ranks af such superb groups as the Nashville Symphony. As long as we're advocating removal of one crown jewel, why not more. Let's sell the Museum collections. Close the Zoo, auction off the animals. Build condos at Big Met. Maybe we can figure out a way to offload all the professional sports teams, especially given the subsidies they enjoy via their lease arrangements. As long as CLeveland is in decline, we might as well get rid of whatever is left that can keep (or draw) people here.

Jeff

It really depends. Would 99 percent of the audience be able to tell the difference?

Geauga Lake shut down because Six Flags and then Cedar Point pumped tens of millions of dollars into it to compete for additional sales that didn't appear. Without all that extra investment there probably could have been continual operating profit.

similar stuff can be demonstrated for most Convention Centers and Casinos built in the last 20 years.

[ryan costa]

Bill is right if people care about the arts go support them! If people vote with their money and their feet that they would rather go to the bar, watch Tv, go to the movies or go to a Hip-Hop show then support the Cleveland Orchestra so be it. In the past 15 years we have lost a Ballet, two hockey teams, and a WNBA team because people are unable or unwilling to support these institutions. I know times are tough in Ohio ( all I gotta do is look in my own wallet) but I see people out drinking at the bars, going to the Browns games 73,000 strong every Sunday and people are shelling out upwards of $100 to see The Police, Bruce Springsteen or Kenny Chesney. If the Cleveland Orchestra or any other form of entertainment isn't financially viable let it go to Nashville or wherever. No one is going to move to the Cleveland area from another region because the Cleveland Orchestra plays x number of Thursdays a year. Spend that money on job creation or give it back to the people to spend how they please. I am not a smoker but my Mother is. Give her back that 18 cents a pack and she'll spend it at the mall on her hobbies or maybe she'll go out to dinner and spend it there. It will then travel though the local economy numerous times possibly creating jobs. As sad as it may be to those in the Arts community most of us really aren't that concerned if the Cleveland Orchestra is there or not.

We also lost The Cleveland Crunch...

But the strong music scene has paid off Christopher O'Reilly has moved here. Jerry Shirley lived here for a while. Eric Carmen lives here.

[Todd Shapiro]

Jeff and Brad

I want to thank you for posting the information that I asked about earlier. I just got home from work and I am off to cover the Varsity football game but I will look over that information later tonight or tomorrow. Even if we may disagree it is good to have all the facts at hand to make EVERYONE more informed. Thanks Guys!!

Todd