First and foremost, I feel that full-day kindergarten can be effective in reducing the achievement gap among disadvantaged children. I also feel that it can be a good alternative or option for working parents. I also believe that if a parent chooses a ½ day program for their child, for whatever reason, that they NOT feel that they are doing their child a DISSERVICE by NOT attending full-day.
I also feel that parents should be given all the information needed to make a decision for their child. I had asked several times what the afternoon would look like. Will they be resting? Will there be story time? Quiet time? Will they be doing music, art & gym or pushing academics when a child is not DEVELOPMENTALLY ready? I felt that, even though an “honest†answer of “we just don’t know yet†was given, for me it was not an adequate answer when implementing a PILOT program of this magnitude. The lack of communication surrounding the decision and the implementation of this full-day program is mind boggling. In my opinion, “Numbers†in a program, does not equal “success†in a program, as stated at a board meeting, “The all-day kindergarten pilot program has been a huge successâ€Â. That was the 3rd day of school.
Just some FYI, that you don't hear, from my own research on full-day kindergarten:
A number of studies show that the academic achievements, largely for disadvantaged students, by attending full day kindergarten diminishes by the end of 1st grade and is nearly eliminated by the end of 3rd grade.
One study (www.rand.org) reports, â€ÂOur analyses reinforce the findings of earlier studies that suggest that full-day kindergarten programs may not enhance achievement in the long term. Furthermore, our study raises the possibility that full-day kindergarten programs may actually be detrimental to mathematics performance and nonacademic readiness skillsâ€Â.
It’s worth reading up on both the advantages and disadvantages. I have more info if anyone is interested.
Full-day kindergarten
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
-
Mona Ewing
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:43 pm
-
Mona Ewing
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:43 pm
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
I have not posted here for a while, but I feel the need to offer a bit of "crone" type advice.
Mrs. Ewing and Mrs. Dean, PLEASE for your childrens' sake, and your own, lighten up just a bit. As the parent of grown children, I can't recall a single issue from kindergarten that had any sort of lasting impact.
Your children's first years in school should be a time of shared joy and enthusiasm, as you watch them learn and grow. Not a time of you going into battle with the school board over class sizes, nap times, curriculum, etc.
My last daughter got her diploma in June. I don't know if I would take the chance to revisit the years of cookies and milk and finger-painting (we can get wistful, but we are also realistic). When I look back at what my 3 went through over the years, and they were all normal kids with normal childhoods and normal school careersm, there is nothing I can even remember about their time in kidergarten---other than the art work I've saved.
With the difficult years and issues which are surely ahead for all parents, even those with the "best" children, I do know that I look back at the earliest years as the easiest ones.
That's all I have to say, and you can discard the point of view or work it into your philosophy. I hope you will. God bless.
Mrs. Ewing and Mrs. Dean, PLEASE for your childrens' sake, and your own, lighten up just a bit. As the parent of grown children, I can't recall a single issue from kindergarten that had any sort of lasting impact.
Your children's first years in school should be a time of shared joy and enthusiasm, as you watch them learn and grow. Not a time of you going into battle with the school board over class sizes, nap times, curriculum, etc.
My last daughter got her diploma in June. I don't know if I would take the chance to revisit the years of cookies and milk and finger-painting (we can get wistful, but we are also realistic). When I look back at what my 3 went through over the years, and they were all normal kids with normal childhoods and normal school careersm, there is nothing I can even remember about their time in kidergarten---other than the art work I've saved.
With the difficult years and issues which are surely ahead for all parents, even those with the "best" children, I do know that I look back at the earliest years as the easiest ones.
That's all I have to say, and you can discard the point of view or work it into your philosophy. I hope you will. God bless.
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
-
Suzie Dean
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:55 pm
Joan,
Lighten up for my children's sake??? I am choking on my words as I say that! Do I need to remind people that I do not have a kindergarten at this moment, but I will and I have. With your children out of school, I can't even fathom the thought that you would even know what is expected of them at this young age in the society we are in now...not 15 years ago.
It isn't all pretty art lady! You don't remember anything but the art that you saved from them? Well pity on you then. I remember things from when I was in kindergarten. I too went to Lakewood schools. I went to kindergarten at McKinley. What they do now...is totally different then when I went. I am only 31 years old. I remember the letter people. Mr. T with the tall teeth, Mr.Z with his zippers...we learned our letters in kindergarten. Now they are expected to know them when they walk in the door on the first day of school. I remember learning shapes. I remember having "play time" I played in the kitchen any chance I got. I even got a wooden piece of fruit thrown at me. Do they do that now...not hardly. I remember learning how to read in first grade...not kindergarten like it is now.
If it is "no big deal" just supposed to be time shared and enthusiasm then why is it such a big deal to have children in full day kindergarten? Why do parents feel the need for it?
I am a stay at home mother and I soak up every moment I have to spend with my children making fond memories. I will remember more from kindergarten then just their art work.
I fight this battle now so maybe in two years when my youngest will be starting kindergarten I won't have to. Maybe by then the board will have all the quarks worked out of the "pilot" full day program, the new schools, and give the com unity the numbers we were promised!
Lighten up for my children's sake??? I am choking on my words as I say that! Do I need to remind people that I do not have a kindergarten at this moment, but I will and I have. With your children out of school, I can't even fathom the thought that you would even know what is expected of them at this young age in the society we are in now...not 15 years ago.
It isn't all pretty art lady! You don't remember anything but the art that you saved from them? Well pity on you then. I remember things from when I was in kindergarten. I too went to Lakewood schools. I went to kindergarten at McKinley. What they do now...is totally different then when I went. I am only 31 years old. I remember the letter people. Mr. T with the tall teeth, Mr.Z with his zippers...we learned our letters in kindergarten. Now they are expected to know them when they walk in the door on the first day of school. I remember learning shapes. I remember having "play time" I played in the kitchen any chance I got. I even got a wooden piece of fruit thrown at me. Do they do that now...not hardly. I remember learning how to read in first grade...not kindergarten like it is now.
If it is "no big deal" just supposed to be time shared and enthusiasm then why is it such a big deal to have children in full day kindergarten? Why do parents feel the need for it?
I am a stay at home mother and I soak up every moment I have to spend with my children making fond memories. I will remember more from kindergarten then just their art work.
I fight this battle now so maybe in two years when my youngest will be starting kindergarten I won't have to. Maybe by then the board will have all the quarks worked out of the "pilot" full day program, the new schools, and give the com unity the numbers we were promised!
-
Phil Florian
- Posts: 538
- Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:24 pm
Uh-oh. Here we go again. 
Due to Ken's rather cool post below, I feel compelled to explain my off the cuff remark. This topic has been covered, quite extensively, only a week or so ago. In a manner that was, well, tough for all involved I think.
Anyway, I love to read new discussions on it but if folks want to see the most recent (of many) threads on Full Day Kindergarten, here is the most recent. Dig in.
http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4638
Due to Ken's rather cool post below, I feel compelled to explain my off the cuff remark. This topic has been covered, quite extensively, only a week or so ago. In a manner that was, well, tough for all involved I think.
Anyway, I love to read new discussions on it but if folks want to see the most recent (of many) threads on Full Day Kindergarten, here is the most recent. Dig in.
http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4638
-
Kenneth Warren
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:17 pm
Ms. Dean:
Thank you for a great post and expression of determination to commandeer the platform and resources you deem important to your child’s development and learning at Grant School.
I believe the Board of Education and all of the community must listen clearly and respond effectively to your expectations for quality neighborhood schools and to honor any promises made about class size.
These expectations come from the heart and soul of one of our city's most critical neighborhoods. I realize the importance of the Grant School community and neighborhood to Lakewood. Determined parents, responsive educators and children have created a great educational environment.
While I salute the crone and welcome Ms. Roberts back to the LO Deck, there is no substituting wisdom for experience. Each generation will face a complex of issues in parenting. I can only imagine how the pressures and anxieties of these times would make it difficult for parents to lighten up.
All of us on the LO Deck are honored to hear your battle cry. Some of us will respond differently than others, and perhaps not necessarily in a way you will find constructive. Please know we will each offer a measure of assistance formulated from our experience and perspectives.
Battle ever onward for the sake of your children in the spirit of motherhood that compels you.
More power to you.
Don't let crones and curmudgeons (like me) who have fulfilled their parenting obligations take you out of your game.
Kenneth Warren
Thank you for a great post and expression of determination to commandeer the platform and resources you deem important to your child’s development and learning at Grant School.
I believe the Board of Education and all of the community must listen clearly and respond effectively to your expectations for quality neighborhood schools and to honor any promises made about class size.
These expectations come from the heart and soul of one of our city's most critical neighborhoods. I realize the importance of the Grant School community and neighborhood to Lakewood. Determined parents, responsive educators and children have created a great educational environment.
While I salute the crone and welcome Ms. Roberts back to the LO Deck, there is no substituting wisdom for experience. Each generation will face a complex of issues in parenting. I can only imagine how the pressures and anxieties of these times would make it difficult for parents to lighten up.
All of us on the LO Deck are honored to hear your battle cry. Some of us will respond differently than others, and perhaps not necessarily in a way you will find constructive. Please know we will each offer a measure of assistance formulated from our experience and perspectives.
Battle ever onward for the sake of your children in the spirit of motherhood that compels you.
More power to you.
Don't let crones and curmudgeons (like me) who have fulfilled their parenting obligations take you out of your game.
Kenneth Warren
-
Mona Ewing
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:43 pm
-
Mona Ewing
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:43 pm
Ms. Roberts,
Thank you for your “crone†advice, but I will not be working it into my philosophy. I do not advocate apathy. I do advocate equality. I wanted, very much so, the same “shared joy and enthusiasm†that I had with my older daughter when she entered kindergarten but unfortunately did not have the opportunity, with my 5 year old, due to the lack of information, the lack of organization, the lack of consideration and the lack of respect that I have encountered this year. I’m sorry you don’t feel that class size is relevant in kindergarten, I’m sure there are teachers and other parents that would disagree with you. I know my child would disagree with you as well. It made a huge difference going from 29 children to 19 children in a classroom with only one teacher. The “active and outspoken†parents, and the “battle†with the board, I’m sure somehow influenced that speedy decision. I feel that it was well worth it, as would several other parents I know who have had to do the same. Thank you for your concern for my time spent during “my children’s first years in school†but I’m quite fine with how I spend my time with and for my children.
Thank you for your “crone†advice, but I will not be working it into my philosophy. I do not advocate apathy. I do advocate equality. I wanted, very much so, the same “shared joy and enthusiasm†that I had with my older daughter when she entered kindergarten but unfortunately did not have the opportunity, with my 5 year old, due to the lack of information, the lack of organization, the lack of consideration and the lack of respect that I have encountered this year. I’m sorry you don’t feel that class size is relevant in kindergarten, I’m sure there are teachers and other parents that would disagree with you. I know my child would disagree with you as well. It made a huge difference going from 29 children to 19 children in a classroom with only one teacher. The “active and outspoken†parents, and the “battle†with the board, I’m sure somehow influenced that speedy decision. I feel that it was well worth it, as would several other parents I know who have had to do the same. Thank you for your concern for my time spent during “my children’s first years in school†but I’m quite fine with how I spend my time with and for my children.
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Mr. Warren.Kenneth Warren wrote:
While I salute the crone and welcome Ms. Roberts back to the LO Deck, there is no substituting wisdom for experience..
Don't let crones and curmudgeons (like me) who have fulfilled their parenting obligations take you out of your game.
Kenneth Warren
Thanks for the note but I am not "back." While I have lurked on occasion, my posting days are behind me.
My "crone" advice was simply that, and while I would love to get a de-briefing in 12 years from Mrs Dean and Mrs. Ewing on their kindergarten experience, after they've had their turn at the fun of middle-school booze parties, sex-ed chats, ISS, body piercings, the odious boyfriend and so on, it's doubtful neither I nor they will have the energy or interest in it.
I would only submit to you, Mr. Warren, that another new publicly-financed facility wasn't completely perfect from Day One, either, and that many in the community rose to defend, rather than condemn, the concept of "temporary inconvenience/permanent improvement."
I have spoken my piece. And it's back to my the den of the occasional lurker.
Best...JR
Joan Roberts
"Whose needs are being met?"
"Whose needs are being met?"
-
Dee Martinez
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:47 am
[quote="Joan Roberts"]
I would only submit to you, Mr. Warren, that another new publicly-financed facility wasn't completely perfect from Day One, either, and that many in the community rose to defend, rather than condemn, the concept of "temporary inconvenience/permanent improvement."
/quote]
Ouch!
I would only submit to you, Mr. Warren, that another new publicly-financed facility wasn't completely perfect from Day One, either, and that many in the community rose to defend, rather than condemn, the concept of "temporary inconvenience/permanent improvement."
/quote]
Ouch!
-
Suzie Dean
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:55 pm
Um...Mrs. Joans I have had the "sex talk" and experience with middle school parties, etc. If you have been "lurking" you would know from my previous posting that I have 5 children. I am a concerned mother for ALL of my children, no matter the age, or grade level that they are in. I will continue to stand up for what I feel is right, for what I feel my children deserve, and what they were promised. EVERYTHING my children do or are involved in, is of interest to me, that's why I am a mother. So in twelve years when I am sitting on the porch with friends, we will reminisce the years we shared, the battles we fought, and the difference we made by standing our ground, and standing up for our kids.
-
Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
I actually didn't think Ms. Roberts post was meant to be offensive, but meant to try to diffuse some of the anger as having raised kids already, by giving some advice. To criticize her for not remembering much about her her kids kindergarten is too much! Your posts seem so filled with anger--at everyone who doesn't agree with you!! As someone pointed out on another thread, the deck is not the place for finding solutions, more for venting. Spewing all that anger and insinuations that you and your group are better parents is appalling. You have NO IDEA what sacrifices any other parent has made, how many sleepless nights for many issues from health to school.
Go forth in your attempts to get smaller class sizes, but it doesn't always have to be an angry fight! You said yourself you don't even have a kindergarten child so you are CHOOSING TO BE ANGRY AND FIGHT and seem to blame anyone that gets in the way.
And I agree with Ms. Roberts, until you go through life or death situations with your children, or serious heartbreaking moments, then you won't realize how much energy you used on anger for something that will not break your child in half. Unless you make them believe that. Go spew all you want. I am tired of this anger being spewed at any one that has an opinion different than yours. I certainly won't put my personal resume or experiences on the deck, but as good of a parent as you believe you are, there are many of us that know we are just as good, so don't imply otherwise.
Go forth in your attempts to get smaller class sizes, but it doesn't always have to be an angry fight! You said yourself you don't even have a kindergarten child so you are CHOOSING TO BE ANGRY AND FIGHT and seem to blame anyone that gets in the way.
And I agree with Ms. Roberts, until you go through life or death situations with your children, or serious heartbreaking moments, then you won't realize how much energy you used on anger for something that will not break your child in half. Unless you make them believe that. Go spew all you want. I am tired of this anger being spewed at any one that has an opinion different than yours. I certainly won't put my personal resume or experiences on the deck, but as good of a parent as you believe you are, there are many of us that know we are just as good, so don't imply otherwise.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
-
Dee Martinez
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:47 am
I dont in any way want to retchet up the emotional level but it is worth noting that "neighborhood schools" have a downside as well as upside.
If you live in Avon Lake or Strongsville, where there are just a couple of big elementary schools busing, your child gets on a bus and goes to the school the district has chosen for her or him. There is not much in the way of accomodation if you want your child to go to Smiley Happy Elementary instead Rotten Nasty Elementary. If on day one, Smiley Happy has more kids than they figured, on day two, some of them just stay on the bus longer and get to Rotten Nasty.
Because Lakewood has no busing and has neighborhood schools, it is almost by definition a dynamic situation. Class sizes do fluctuate from school to school, year to year. There are over 1000 apartments in the McKinley neighborhood. If just 1 percent of those apartments are rented by a family with a KG-age child new to Lakewood, it will change a McKinley KG class from 17 to 27 overnight. and as I pointed out earlier, again by definition, renters often dont register their new students six months in advance.
The upside of Lakewood is that your kids dont have to get on a bus at 7 a.m. to get to kindergarten across town. The downside is that class sizes are less predictable. Lakewood has been here for more than 100 years and its always been that way. You are not the first families to have children in the Lakewood schools. You chose Lakewood for a reason and now you criticize it for the very reason you chose it in the first place.
While I applaud your single-minded interest in your childrens education, I would also remind you that this is the nature of Lakewood, and that the blithe idea of just "hire another teacher" flies in the face that 80% of Lakewood households DONT have kids in the schools and yet pay dearly for them. I think the schools are trying their best to work with you on this one.
One added thought, responding to Mrs. Roberts. My oldest daughter went to KG at Grant, and I couldnt for the life of me tell you what her class size was, although Im pretty sure it was more than 17. I would ask her but shes busy working on her doctorate.
If you live in Avon Lake or Strongsville, where there are just a couple of big elementary schools busing, your child gets on a bus and goes to the school the district has chosen for her or him. There is not much in the way of accomodation if you want your child to go to Smiley Happy Elementary instead Rotten Nasty Elementary. If on day one, Smiley Happy has more kids than they figured, on day two, some of them just stay on the bus longer and get to Rotten Nasty.
Because Lakewood has no busing and has neighborhood schools, it is almost by definition a dynamic situation. Class sizes do fluctuate from school to school, year to year. There are over 1000 apartments in the McKinley neighborhood. If just 1 percent of those apartments are rented by a family with a KG-age child new to Lakewood, it will change a McKinley KG class from 17 to 27 overnight. and as I pointed out earlier, again by definition, renters often dont register their new students six months in advance.
The upside of Lakewood is that your kids dont have to get on a bus at 7 a.m. to get to kindergarten across town. The downside is that class sizes are less predictable. Lakewood has been here for more than 100 years and its always been that way. You are not the first families to have children in the Lakewood schools. You chose Lakewood for a reason and now you criticize it for the very reason you chose it in the first place.
While I applaud your single-minded interest in your childrens education, I would also remind you that this is the nature of Lakewood, and that the blithe idea of just "hire another teacher" flies in the face that 80% of Lakewood households DONT have kids in the schools and yet pay dearly for them. I think the schools are trying their best to work with you on this one.
One added thought, responding to Mrs. Roberts. My oldest daughter went to KG at Grant, and I couldnt for the life of me tell you what her class size was, although Im pretty sure it was more than 17. I would ask her but shes busy working on her doctorate.
-
Justine Cooper
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:12 am
- Location: Lakewood
And how dare you bring the parents of the full day kindergarten AGAIN into your fighting to justify getting what you want? Why do we feel the need for it? How about it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS but it was offered and I AM APPRECIATIVE AND SO IS MY SON WHO IS THRIVING IN IT!Suzie Dean wrote:
If it is "no big deal" just supposed to be time shared and enthusiasm then why is it such a big deal to have children in full day kindergarten? Why do parents feel the need for it?
Save the condescending pity you give to an intelligent woman for yourself. And QUIT JUDGING THE REST OF US AND WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE!
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive" Dalai Lama
-
Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
I know I said I would post anymore, and this is why. The reason full-day kindergarten keeps getting brought up is because there are children in large half day kindergarten classes and the district is saying they can't afford to hire more teachers. Then perhaps this isn't the right time financially to be having a full day program. BTW no one from Grant has agreed to move their children to McKinley, I checked this morning. Please help us, please call the district. All children deserve a quality education. We were promised equality when we passed the bond issues. Don't let the Board of Education get away with reneging on their promises. Please help the teachers and the students by hiring an additional teacher. This is about the children and what is best for them. Small class sizes matter. Let's stop the hate and work together as a community. We have done it in the past and I know we can do it know. Please I went to the BOE meeting to support Hayes, all I am asking is that the same support is given to my school. Remember this is about the kids. They are suffering. Kids don't want to go to school. The classes are too chaotic. This isn't right. We really need support right now, not bickering. Thanks for your support, let's put personal differences aside and work together.