Stop the Commuter Rail Line Before It Stops the City!!

[Jeff Endress]

PS, to Bill Call

Bill: Not only did I see a flight of Berkshire sows this morning, but hell has frozen over and the Browns, Indians and Cavs will all win their respetive world titles this year.....

Jeff

[Lynn Farris]

The idea of a commuter train is good, green etc. However the US has never really embraced this idea like European countires have.

I am curious as to where this train would run.

People talk about going to Cleveland. We have a rapid with a beautiful new Rapid station at W 117th. (It took some time coming - but it is beautiful). We have buses that go to Cleveland every day. Many of them are not very full now. The newest Rapid line around the flats runs empty almost all of the time. We have reduced the big busses to Community Repsonsive Transits because we aren't taking so many people any more.

The Community Responsive Transit takes or at least used to take people to Westgate Mall - I don't know since it has been under reconstruction. Do we really need trains that go to Crocker Park or Great Northern? I bet I could get there by bus. Seems to me that is helping people to leave our area to shop even more than the hated I 90.

It was suggested that it go to Cedar Point. That is a very limited time of the year that Cedar Point and the islands are big draws. Again, wouldn't a bus make more sense if we really felt this was needed - and it could easily be rerouted if there wasn't a need or during the off season. Plus the investment is much, much less.

Would a train serve a different population than the Greyhound Busses? Would it cost more or less. Again it is an easy bus ride down to the Greyhound station - my son uses the Greyhound quite often in going back and forth to college. It goes everywhere.

I had a romantic notion about trains. I begged Don when the children were little (with all that baby paraphanelia) to go on a train ride. We flew to DC. boarded a train and took it to NYC then flew home. It really was a horror story and the train was no more than a big rapid transit. It was more expensive than the flight would have been and it was an unpleasant experience. Maybe if I had realized that it was a big rapid and not the Orient Express I would have set my expectations differently.

I have taken trains that were both nicer and less nice in Euorpe and in Alaska.

If the train is to work, which I have serious doubts about, you really have to find a market that is large and not being serviced by other mass transit ideas and make it better or less expensive than the alternatives. If such a market exists and is profitable, I am surprised that the private market hasn't already found it and capitalized on it. JMHO

[ryan costa]

On one hand:

the old commuter rail lines going along north Ohio were torn out at enormous expense. The interstates subsidizing(bi-partisan support)were then also added at enormous expense. The economic disentegration enabled by them probably hurt Cleveland(and the region) more than bussing-based school "integration"(mandated by republicans) and democrats(cleveland politicians).

culturally most Americans aren't used to living in cities or riding rail any longer.

When you ride the RTA rail lines you will frequently have an abundance of Negative-Stereotypers onboard, or "Nypers". They could be black youth, white cracker methheads, hispanic, whatever. suburbanites dislike going downtown because it is full of Nypers.

The rail lines themselves are frequently warped and appear quite corroded in places. the cars wobble from side to side frequently.

To justify the investment of commuter rail it will be necessary for authorities at all levels to send a harsh message to the youth: stop being Nypers. On the other hand, the Nypers are only buying what is being sold. There's plenty of media and peer support that caters to their lifestyle. They know what they are, but that is really all they know how to be, so why not enjoy it?

[sharon kinsella]

Where is this peninsula everyone is talking about?

The only peninsula I know of is Peninsula, Oh - where the shopping is fine and the food is fun.

[Lynn Farris]

Sharon,

http://lakewoodobserver.com/pdfs/Observ ... e%2001.pdf

Lakewood Park - Pages 9. 10 and 11.

It is a proposed Pennisula with reclaimed land 26 acres in the original proposal.

[ryan costa]

Here's an interesting page about the history of rail transport in ohio.

http://www.lsery.org/

There were passenger rail lines between cleveland and western ohio 70 years ago. Along the north coast. It is outside most of our frames of references.

There's also an old schedule posted at the entrance lobby of Tower City. They had passenger trains running all over ohio.

[sharon kinsella]

Thanks Lynn.

That's a very well though out idea. Extremely interesting concept and would be a great addition to green space along with a retail component.

[Rick Uldricks]

deleted

[Lynn Farris]

It is still being discussed. Savannah has met with developers who are interested. State officials have indicated that there is money for a feasibility study with the city of Lakewood only needing to contribute some man hours towards the study.

Savannah has in the relatively recently met with Mayoral candidates Ed Fitzgerald and Ryan Demro regarding the plan. She has also talked to several of the council candidates regarding it.

Let your councilperson know if you would like to see the next step of a feasibility study taken on this project.

[c. dawson]

Yep, there were once 60 trains a day leaving from the Terminal Tower, to all points served by railroad lines ... which meant nearly every large and small town in America, since a lot of development in the US was driven by proximity to rail. Busses aren't bad, especially because their ability to go more places, but rail is still more efficient. One bus with one driver can take a small amount of passengers to their destination. One commuter rail train made up of several cars and several staff members can take hundreds of commuters to a main destination. It's cheaper and more efficient.

And US passenger rail is in sad shape because it's run by Amtrak, which has traditionally been underfunded ... and doesn't own the rails it runs on, except for some on the East Coast. So Amtrak's always at the mercy of the rail lines they operate on, and passenger trains will often get shunted aside to let cargo trains go through.

But it can be quite enjoyable. I've taken trains to Chicago many times, and in most cases, the trip has been about the same amount of time as driving to Chicago, and it was much more enjoyable, because I didn't have to fight the traffic or construction, I could sit in the lounge car and watch the scenary go by while meeting a lot of interesting folks. And then once in Chicago, it was easy to hop the L train to anywhere I want to go. It's a shame the US had to get away from passenger rail service, but something new is always more appealing that what you currently have.

I'm willing to bet if someone would run a commuter train from the far west side down the Norfolk Southern tracks right to downtown Cleveland (even letting off at the East 9th street RTA station, so folks could walk to their offices or hop the Waterfront Line to get to Tower City and points farther east on the Red Line), that the train would be filled every day. And it'd likely be a moneymaker for whoever runs it!

[Brad Babcock]

I've seen a lot of good points made about mass transit in this thread, and I would like to add a couple relatively simple observations based on my own experience with mass transit.
Buses are awful. Commuting down-town from the east side, Chester and Euclid could both be brought to a crawl by buses that effectively ate one entire lane though slow movement and constant stopping. Buses have to do that, but they create a log-jam of traffic in their wake. Outside of rush hour they continue to circulate, nearly empty.
Except for times of automotive distress when I would catch a 9 bus down-town, they were rarely handy. When I did have to ride, it turned a 1/2 hour drive into an hour-long ordeal, not counting a 3-mile walk to the nearest route. I was glad to have some means of transport, but it was miserable.
When going to Cleveland State, and working at the Terminal Tower, I could usually walk between the two before a loop bus caught-up to me. Hopefully, the Euclid Corridor project fixes that.
Somehow, less flexible trains have proved to be a lot handier. I use the rapid if I am going to a game, or anyplace within a stone's-throw of Tower City. I use the rapid whenever I travel to the airport. It is fast, cheap (especially with a week of parking) and handy. Part of this handiness comes from living in Lakewood, near the routes.
Trains seem to work well for huge metropolitan areas like Chicago and New-York City. People in those areas frequently commute from a long distance out, into central business districts. Would Cleveland and its surrounding counties support this service on a daily basis? I suspect not, based on nothing more scientific than my gut instinct.
With the advent of cars, freeways, and suburban sprawl, the places we go to and come from have gotten far-flung enough that point-to-point transportation has a very narrow range of effectiveness. How's that for a run-on sentence? I would need to see some very good research on usage and cost before I support a second commuter rail system.

[Shawn Juris]

Do others really feel that traffic is such a nuisance that another option is necessary? I've normally found the commute to downtown either on the shoreway or I-90 to be a breeze. I've done it at a variety of times and have rarely run into a delay.
Seems to me that unless we're approaching a population boom and see massive amounts of jobs coming back into downtown, then this commuter rail poses little necessity.

[Stephen Eisel]

I was just in Racine Wisconsin last week. Wow! They are doing one heck of a job of developing their lakefront. It is a very diverse community. The pennisula concept is a definite winner on so many different levels.

[dl meckes]

Do others really feel that traffic is such a nuisance that another option is necessary? I've normally found the commute to downtown either on the shoreway or I-90 to be a breeze. I've done it at a variety of times and have rarely run into a delay.
Seems to me that unless we're approaching a population boom and see massive amounts of jobs coming back into downtown, then this commuter rail poses little necessity.

I don't think it's about traffic, I think it's about having effective, enjoyable, affordable mass transportation so we are less dependent on cars.

[Donald Farris]

Hi,
DL, I am for all of those things you mentioned. And we are quite lucky here in Lakewood to have the Rapid. It provides us with an alternative to many points of interest. Expanding on it is something I'd back 100%.

Mr. Eisel, you are soo right. Have you been to Erie, Pa? They are also doing a super job of developing their lake shore. It is a shame to have such an amazing resource and us not take advantage of it.