New Restaurant on Detroit Ave.

[Jim O'Bryan]

You really can't place the blame on the seller. This is America, buyer beware.

Joe

How can we not blame the seller?

This photo as I mentioned was taken for a variety of reasons. It does represent Lakewood's dilemma perfectly.

Safety, laws, development, appearance, fairness, even race is a perverse way, I suppose, even though two of the three big races are represented in the photo. I do hope some time in my life we can talk about something without that card being played.

While we all know the story of the young child selling lemonade in front of their home goes back as far as there were humans and lemons. I have a sneaking suspicion that Health and Human Services, the Planning Department, The Chamber of Commerce, Mainstreet, Department of Taxation, Building Department and three businesses within 200' of them that also sell Lemonade feel the same way.

Is there a difference between a 10 year-old selling lemonade, and a 35 year-old? Is there a difference between this new business, and another new business that is forced to get permits, and pass health code? is there a difference between in front of a house or in the "business world" of Detroit Avenue? What if the person starts selling Rice Kripsie Treats? Hot Dogs? Roast Duck, Lamb, Wraps?

I am not suggesting kids selling lemonade in front of their homes get permits or even register. I am just underlining how slippery of a slope this can be and why I took and posted the photo.



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[Rob Burgoyne]

What, I am not allowed to be anti section 8? From my point of view, it (section 8 housing) has done nothing positive for the city of Lakewood. Black or white has nothing to do with this issue. It is all about the culture of Lakewood changing..

No, this is America and you still have the right to be anti (almost) whatever you want. But, is it fair to make economic and social assumptions based on the image of a young girl with comments like:

This city really needs to do something about section 8 housing..

This kind of stuff makes me want to scream "You are no longer in the ghetto"

She was stiring it with her hand... mmmmmmm

This kind of stuff makes me want to scream "Stephen, move to Avon!"

How can a photo of a young girl at a lemonade stand cause such a reaction from grown adults? How would you feel if a photo of you or your daughter got such a reaction?

Here is a kid that decided she was going to do something we have all done as kids. So, she picked a busy location on Lakewood's main street-- that makes her a transplant from the ghetto who lives in section 8 and stirs lemonade with her hand? Grow up. I know this is a faceless medium but your comments aren't witty or funny and probably fuel the regional popular opinion that Lakewood residents are intolerant and privileged suburbanites.

I am having trouble connecting the dots here. This photo, to section 8 housing, to more cops equaling less crime?? All in a short thread about a kid selling lemonade on a busy street.

Jim, it isn't that your photo was racist but is the connection between your photo and the above comments that is troubling. Do you really think that girl is 30? Granted the lighting in that picture is not the greatest but it is obvious to me that she is still a minor. Look at her face-- she is still a kid. Are you poking fun at her size by calling her 30? Yes, it does make a difference if she is 10 or 30. You remember all the things you did as a kid that you wouldn't do as an adult don't you? What if those things were caught by the Obserazzi and spawned assumptions about your social economical situation and how it is corrupting your fair city.

Something that I have noticed about the Observer over the past few months. You have this community newspaper which is an important voice for Lakewood residents. Resident volunteers deserve a ton of credit for submitting articles and photos that are beneficial to the exchange of ideas in our city. I have heard a few people comment that it is the only positive news published in our region. I have also heard the argument that The Observer only publishes positive and light news. Then you have the Observation deck which is like the evil twin brother of the newspaper where people type things that they would never think about publishing in a newspaper and in some cases comments that they don't have the wit or social skills to bring up in a real face to face conversation. I have seen similar responses since the dawn of bulletin board systems where people grow tall and loud behind the glow of their computer monitor.

I find it interesting that the Observer is an outlet for both well thought out topics and also the darker more hurtful snide remarks that are dividing our neighborhood into us and them. Which medium is more telling?

If you think the culture of Lakewood is changing for the worst and that this change is the cause of your narrow-minded assumptions about section 8 and crime then get out from behind your monitor and do something to change Lakewood's culture for the better.

-Rob Burgoyne

[Jim O'Bryan]

Rob

I have no idea to go with this note.

I appreciate every word of it.

The PERCEPTION is the LO is the good news paper.

The PERCEPTION is the Deck is the evil twin.

Neither is true. It is a community project that is much larger than the paper and/or the Deck, it the combination of all that makes it work. To make the city better for all we need to know as much as we can.

Rob I understand the outrage, though I personally feel it is misplaced.


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[Stephen Eisel]

Rob, do you feel better? That girl selling lemonade on a busy street corner is so ghetto that it is not even funny. Had she been white, I would have made the same comment. (and would have made reference to the movie Vacation where the girl stirs the Kool-Aid with her arm). She looks to be over the age of 13 to me.. It is just not normal for kids that age to set up a stand on busy street corner and start selling lemonade. It is cute when they are 10 or younger and in front of their house. Yes, I saw this same type of thing when I lived on Prospect in down town Cleveland (hence the ghetto comment). A lot of the comments made in this thread were tongue and cheek.. Sorry, I came here to have fun meet some fellow citizend and not have to answer to the PC Police...

[sharon kinsella]

Jim O'B - I was not accusing you of being racist. I actually think you are one of the good guys and you mean well.

Rob - You are saying a lot of what I've been saying all along and I thank you.

Stephen - These are not subjects to be sarcastic about. There are buzz words that have been bandied about in this city that are classicist and racist.

People who say things like ghetto and white trailer trash are going to be jumped on.

There is nothing funny about racism and classim. Ask the people who have suffered

[Stephen Eisel]

Jim O'B - I was not accusing you of being racist. I actually think you are one of the good guys and you mean well.

Rob - You are saying a lot of what I've been saying all along and I thank you.

Stephen - These are not subjects to be sarcastic about. There are buzz words that have been bandied about in this city that are classicist and racist.

People who say things like ghetto and white trailer trash are going to be jumped on.

There is nothing funny about racism and classim. Ask the people who have suffered

LOL Dave Chappelle and Richard Pryor may disagree with you on that one... Jeff Foxworthy toooo...

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim O'B - I was not accusing you of being racist. I actually think you are one of the good guys and you mean well.

Rob - You are saying a lot of what I've been saying all along and I thank you.

Stephen - These are not subjects to be sarcastic about. There are buzz words that have been bandied about in this city that are classicist and racist.

People who say things like ghetto and white trailer trash are going to be jumped on.

There is nothing funny about racism and classim. Ask the people who have suffered

Sharon

I may be a little bit sensitive on this issue. Some of us have been trying to move Lakewood into a safer higher level. Without race, finances, religion, or lifestyle.

It is based on respect and behavior.

Yet when behavior and or respect and or safety is brought in, it seems someone always wants to bring color into the discussion. It is really starting to bother me.

One of the biggest faults for all of this is the regular media. Portraying people as black, white, middle class whatever. Our policy is we only describe when we are looking for someone. Otherwise, Lakewoodite suits me fine.

I can look at the courageous discussion another way. We are Americans, we are all allowed free speech. When we stifle free speech we stop a tremendous opportunity to change people's minds hopefully for the better.

The worst discussion is better than the smallest fist fight.

FWIW


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[Stephen Eisel]

Jim O'B - I was not accusing you of being racist. I actually think you are one of the good guys and you mean well.

Rob - You are saying a lot of what I've been saying all along and I thank you.

Stephen - These are not subjects to be sarcastic about. There are buzz words that have been bandied about in this city that are classicist and racist.

People who say things like ghetto and white trailer trash are going to be jumped on.

There is nothing funny about racism and classim. Ask the people who have suffered

Sharon

I may be a little bit sensitive on this issue. Some of us have been trying to move Lakewood into a safer higher level. Without race, finances, religion, or lifestyle.

It is based on respect and behavior.

Yet when behavior and or respect and or safety is brought in, it seems someone always wants to bring color into the discussion. It is really starting to bother me.

One of the biggest faults for all of this is the regular media. Portraying people as black, white, middle class whatever. Our policy is we only describe when we are looking for someone. Otherwise, Lakewoodite suits me fine.

I can look at the courageous discussion another way. We are Americans, we are all allowed free speech. When we stifle free speech we stop a tremendous opportunity to change people's minds hopefully for the better.

The worst discussion is better than the smallest fist fight.

FWIW


.

great point! This is not about race..

[Annie Stahlheber]

People who don't say anything when they are privately outraged simply add to the problem.
Stephen, when you look at a photo of a young girl and connect that to getting section 8 housing out of Lakewood, that is racism. The problem with writing your comments is that they are written, and if you were trying to be funny with the "stirring the lemonade with the hand" or the "ghetto" comments, it didn't come across that way, especially since you had already made the "let's get section 8 out of lakewood" comment.

I agree with you Rob, Sharon. I don't feel that the comments were misplaced - they are dead on and people need to start realizing that their connections to a child/teen (whatever she is) selling lemonade and section 8 housing and crime are not accurate.

Jim, I wasn't saying you were being racist by putting up a photo on the deck. The racist parts were the comments that followed.

~Annie

[Stephen Eisel]

People who don't say anything when they are privately outraged simply add to the problem.
Stephen, when you look at a photo of a young girl and connect that to getting section 8 housing out of Lakewood, that is racism. The problem with writing your comments is that they are written, and if you were trying to be funny with the "stirring the lemonade with the hand" or the "ghetto" comments, it didn't come across that way, especially since you had already made the "let's get section 8 out of lakewood" comment.

I agree with you Rob, Sharon. I don't feel that the comments were misplaced - they are dead on and people need to start realizing that their connections to a child/teen (whatever she is) selling lemonade and section 8 housing and crime are not accurate.

Jim, I wasn't saying you were being racist by putting up a photo on the deck. The racist parts were the comments that followed.

~Annie

Let us be clear on the definiton of racism before we accuse people of the act...

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function: noun
Date: 1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

[Annie Stahlheber]

are you denying that your comments were racist?

[Stephen Eisel]

Stephen, when you look at a photo of a young girl and connect that to getting section 8 housing out of Lakewood, that is racism. The problem with writing your comments is that they are written, and if you were trying to be funny with the "stirring the lemonade with the hand" or the "ghetto" comments, it didn't come across that way, especially since you had already made the "let's get section 8 out of lakewood" comment.

The stirring comment was not about race. I had visions of the movie "Vacation" where the young girl (Eddy's daughter) stirs the Kool-Aid with her hand..

[sharon kinsella]

Thank you Ann and all.

Jim - Nobody I'm saying your a racist.

And yes everyone is entitled to opinion, which means that if I feel that I can also say what I see.

What I saw: A picture of a young woman selling lemonade on a main street.

What I read were references to section 8, white trailer trash and ghetto.

I've been around a lot of places for a long time, and I know buzz words when I see them. Euphemisms and veiled words don't hide the meaning behind them.

You did not reference these things. Others did.

Please don't see these things as attacks on you, they're not.

They are statements refuting the statements made after the picture posted.
Not your statements, the statements of others.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim, I wasn't saying you were being racist by putting up a photo on the deck. The racist parts were the comments that followed.

~Annie

Annie

Thanks for the clarification.

I have been spending time in East Cleveland helping them develop some of the ideas from Lakewood's Visionary Alignment. As you know a very recepetive audience for progressive out of the box thinking. I believe you mentioned you are working with them on Food Security as well.

Working side by side with a bunch of people, with a bunch great ideas on how we can bring back an economy to East Cleveland while boosting their real estate values and home sales and improve local safety. It was a lot of fun, catered by Hot Sauce Williams.

Drive back to Lakewood and I find out I had become a racist.

Again, thanks for the clarification.


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[Dave Sharosky]

Jim O'B - I was not accusing you of being racist. I actually think you are one of the good guys and you mean well.

Rob - You are saying a lot of what I've been saying all along and I thank you.

Stephen - These are not subjects to be sarcastic about. There are buzz words that have been bandied about in this city that are classicist and racist.

People who say things like ghetto and white trailer trash are going to be jumped on.

There is nothing funny about racism and classim. Ask the people who have suffered

People,

First regarding the girl in the photo. It's great she wanted to sell lemonade and become an entrepreneur. The problem is where she's at. What parent in the friggin right mind would let there young kid set up on a busy corner right next to a busy street. My parents, let alone my dad would have slapped me upside the head for first leaving the area where they could keep an eye on me and second for being in too dangerous of a place for a kid that age. He would have said, "What are you, an idiot? I'm not raising a moron."

Second for the classism, racism, white trailer trash, ghetto references. Is it funny, no (unless the comedian is extremely whimsical). Is it all there in our society, yes. There is racism. There will always be classism. And I hate to break the news to everyone, as shocking as it may be... there are trashy people in this world. Some are considered white trash, some are associated with the term ghetto trash. We've become too tolerant in our society. Is it bad to go overboard and so rigid you can't function properly. Yes. But it's as equally as bad to have such a hands off, leave them alone approach you don't hold social and moral standards. And although I hate to know that my parents grew up dirt poor and I mean dirt poor, I find these situations great to have a personal reference. They had not a penny to their name, numerous brothers and sisters and just a city of cleveland education. And guess what. They comb their hair, brush their teeth, obey traffic and pedestrian laws, worked hard all their lives, kept nice homes, nice lawns, respected themselves and others around them, respected the community they live in, kept their radios to respectable level, etc.... My point is some people are just nasty. Don't blame being poor or use falling on hard times as an excuse. I've been laid off before. You adjust. You don't become a social and civic moron all of a sudden. And Bob, there are a number of us in Lakewood trying to keep this city as wonderful as it can be. We're attending council meetings, joining civic organizations, talking to our council people. I may not agree to what everyone has said on here. Some comments may have negative overtones. But I will call it out. To your face or on here.

Thank you for listening.

Dave