New Curfew Law

[Grace O'Malley]

Ryan

What you are suggesting, a "test" to vote, has already been done, found unconstitutional, and is abhorrent to me.

Same thing with only allowing property owners the franchise. England moved away from that many decades ago; do you suggest we go back to the old ways?

I hope you're just joking because the ideas are anti-American.

Read about disenfranchisement here:

http://www.umich.edu/~lawrace/disenfranchise1.htm

[Ryan Salo]

I am partly joking, but the more idiots that want free stuff that vote the more expensive life gets for those that work for a living.

The movie Idiocracy was just a joke movie but it showed a society that was way dumbed down. The movie claimed that since educated people in general have less kids and the less educated have many more that the world is eventually dumbed down because the "idiots in the movie" changed society to make it easier. It was an interesting concept.

I don't know how wanting educated voters is anti-american when someday we could be totally ruined by it. If people that are taught dependency are outnumbering those actually working it will destroy us.

What is your fix to that Grace?


BTW - I don't take anything from Michigan seriously so find other sources for me in the future!

[Grace O'Malley]

I'm afraid I can't help you, Ryan, because I don't buy into the rhetoric you've chosen to believe.

I don't believe America is being ruined by the underclasses. You apparently do.

[Ryan Salo]

Underclass? I am talking about people not working and receiving more and more government (working citizens) money. That is not rhetoric those are real people receiving real money. Some have to but many do not.

What is your solution to that? Or do you not see that reality?

[Robert Bobik]

I'm assuming by non-property owners you mean renters? Why should non-property owners not be allowed to vote on property taxes? Are you of the mindset that non-property owners vote for increases because they don't directly pay property taxes? I have heard this said several times since I have lived in Lakewood. I could be wrong here, but if a property owner has their property taxes raised, do they raise what they charge their tenants? Or, out of the kindness of their hearts, do the property owners cover the increase for their tenants? That makes good business sense. If a non-property owner(renter) votes for property tax increase, maybe, just maybe they are willing to pay more taxes via rent for the higher quality of life the taxes might fund.

[Lynn Farris]

Ryan, my experience has been the complete opposite. I am blown away by the intelligence of people everyday. And the teens in Lakewood never fail to impress me.

Let's look at the last election - one of the most complicated issues on the ballot was the smoking ban. I believe it was truly designed to be extremely complicated by the people that opposed it. The voters were able to understand both the issues and vote to ban smoking in public places. (Whether you are for the ban or not - it was a consistent and intelligent vote.)

In terms of taxes - teens pay a lot in taxes as I already documented. Non property owners pay property tax indirectly through the rents increasing. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Even students who may live at home know that there is less money to go around when property taxes increase.

I agree there are people receiving goverment money and not working. Maybe volunteering in a nursing home (lots of them there), a mental hospital or a soup kitchen might help you understand some of the problems that some of these people face. Many people work hard everyday and need government assistance as well. That is a shame. I'm sure that there are some people who take advantage of the system - but the large majority of people that I meet everyday are good.

However, Ryan, I would like to suggest a book - What's the Matter with Kansas for you to read. It does tell a tale of people who are voting against their interests - so perhaps in some ways you are right - at least in Kansas the voters don't seem to be doing a good job anymore.

[Ryan Salo]

I didn't mean to take this so off topic I just raised some questions. In regards to intelligent voters all I know is that for the past 4 elections I have stood outside of many voter booths and met one on one with voters, not in coffee meetings, not on a blog, but walking into the building to vote. I am not sure how many times you have done this Lynn but I was amazed at how uninformed people are.

I have no doubt high schoolers and college kids are informed, it is probably more than those in their older years! That's why I said if they can pass a basic history or basic voting purpose test 12 year olds should be able to vote.

I am for everyone to vote, but lets know what we are voting on!

[Shawn Juris]

I'm assuming by non-property owners you mean renters? Why should non-property owners not be allowed to vote on property taxes? Are you of the mindset that non-property owners vote for increases because they don't directly pay property taxes? I have heard this said several times since I have lived in Lakewood. I could be wrong here, but if a property owner has their property taxes raised, do they raise what they charge their tenants? Or, out of the kindness of their hearts, do the property owners cover the increase for their tenants? That makes good business sense. If a non-property owner(renter) votes for property tax increase, maybe, just maybe they are willing to pay more taxes via rent for the higher quality of life the taxes might fund.

I don't think that there is such a direct connection of increased taxes being subsidized by increased rents charged. There is still market pricing to consider and in Lakewood there is more supply then demand so if we increase taxes I seriously doubt that the 20K+ rental units will all mark up prices because of it.
I would be curious if a correlation exists between Property taxes and % of property owners in a city. Realistically, I would think that it has much more to do with the offset of commercial tax base but then again correlation does not equal causation.
It would be an interesting experiment if there was a tax on the ballot that only applied to renters.

[sharon kinsella]

As a renter and as someone who has owned property and managed property for others, I know that property taxes are part of the equation when working out rental prices and business costs.

So renters are taxed.