Gay Pride Week?

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:16 pm

Bryan

It is amazing that you and I can see reality in the same way. The reason I compared the homosexual lifestyle with the KKK and with alcoholism is because, in my opinion, based on the Bible & modern scientific research, they are all immoral choices.

Here is a link to one of thousands of reference that argue against the whole - I am born with it concept.

http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf

You have consistently referenced that you are with science. Please provide me with some of that evidence.

In regard to destructive facts here are just a few:

Average life expectancy of a gay person is 45yrs old
Average homosexual male has over 20 partners
50% of hepatitis and AID occurs in the homosexual lifestyle costing the county millions in health care costs
Higher rates of suicide than normal population (5x more likely)

To me these figures are pretty destructive.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:31 pm

Ryan Salo wrote:Bryan

Here is a link to one of thousands of reference that argue against the whole - I am born with it concept.

http://www.cwfa.org/images/content/bornorbred.pdf

First, my question was posted to you personally. You continue to throw out that being gay is a choice. I want to know when you personally chose to be straight and what was the thought process like?

As for links with facts...unbiased links...:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ce19m.html
http://www.uel.ac.uk/news/press_release ... orngay.htm
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp? ... 0627d.html
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/ ... e-gay-gene
http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu ... hoice.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealt ... cs/tb/3641

Need any more?

As for the rest of those "statistics", care to cite the source?

I might also recommend this book for some interesting reading:
http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-Really ... 096247519X

I also found this article to be a good articulation comparing both sides of the faith vs homosexuality debate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3205727.stm

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:48 pm

BTW, this article from Columbia University debunks your life expectancy claim:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3.3/ross.html

I only looked at that one as it directly addresses your claim. I'll wait to look into the others once you cite your source.

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:51 pm

Are you trying to say that if being gay is a choice being straight is one too? I would argue that being straight is natural and anything else would require the change in actions, with either a conscience or sub-conscience choice.

I never personally had a choice to make I have always been attracted to females. From what I have read there are certain life factors that can cause someone to lead towards an alternate lifestyle, I fortunately did not experience any of those.

I have read from those that were in that lifestyle and then left it and are now living heterosexual lifestyles, so are they just liars? How do you explain someone switching?

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:00 pm

Bryan,

Here was a pro gay study that found similar results with lower life expectancy - they say 20yrs less. No matter how much less this would be a sign that it is destructive.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... t/26/3/657

Here is another link with plenty of reference.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

I have not checked all of them because so many are listed. Here are a few:

-One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year (6). The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime
-73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization
-25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics
-Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, "30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals
-33% of homosexuals ADMIT to minor/adult sex

Some of the references are older so if you provide any more recent studies let me know.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:01 pm

Ryan Salo wrote:I never personally had a choice to make I have always been attracted to females. From what I have read there are certain life factors that can cause someone to lead towards an alternate lifestyle, I fortunately did not experience any of those.

But science has proven over and over again that all of those "factors" that conservative Christians claim are not accurate. There is no scientific evidence that any of those cause someone to be gay. I've posted plenty of links above that will address this for you.

I have read from those that were in that lifestyle and then left it and are now living heterosexual lifestyles, so are they just liars? How do you explain someone switching?

I wouldn't say they're liars, I would say they've been deeply scared either by "reparative therapy", which psychologists agree is extremely harmful, or their inability to reconcile their homosexuality and their faith beliefs. I would be willing to bet however, their attraction to men is still there as strong as it was before.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:06 pm

To be honest, this will be my last post on this topic as I'm not going to change your mind and you certainly are not going to make me feel bad for being gay.

I have posted enough links to debunk all of your "facts" about gay people. The rest is your personal opinion which you are entitled to have.

Hopefully at some point in the future you will understand how hurtful and judgmental you are being towards an entire group of people. Perhaps you'll grow to the point you can recognize that all people, regardless of gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation deserve the same freedoms, respect, and dignity you feel you deserve yourself.

In the end, I believe the golden rule applies here the most..."do unto others, as you would have them do unto you". Christ asked us to "love each other" and there's more to love than preaching condemnation.

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:09 pm

Bryan

I am sure that you are smart enough to know that there are scientists on both sides of this issue just like the evolution issue. So when you say scientists have proven anything I am sure you know that there are other scientists "proving" the opposite. I will give your side credit that they are interpreting the data to the best of their ability but I hope you don't assume that those of us that think like I do don't have any research or "scientific evidence" of our own.

Lynn Farris · Post by **Lynn Farris** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:10 pm

Ryan you state:

Higher rates of suicide than normal population (5x more likely)

If this is so, I would argue that this is one of the best reasons for Gay Pride Week I could imagine. People in the LGBT community, have been discriminated against and prejudice still exists. So a week to show that they are accepted just as they are seems to be a great idea.

BTW, this isn't something new. The flag thing was new during the last year of Mayor Cain's administration but we have had this for several years.

I do like the idea of a renter's week - let's celebrate our renters and landlords - showcase the apartments and doubles. Let's fill all of them with good quality renters - who may turn into home buyers for Lakewood. We can offer seminars on renting etc. Kind of a parade of homes for People who want to rent. Get the doubles and apartments filled with tax paying citizens!!!!

I'm not sure about the Dog Parade - but maybe we could have a dog show of some sort at Lakewood Park - for regular dogs - not just show dogs. That would be fun. Agility, Obedience, Outfits (I went to a Llama show where they were all dressed up at the Ohio State Fair once). I think things this could benefit the Animal Shelter or the Dog Park.

And I think this has been a great thread. I always wondered why people don't want to discuss politics or religion when they are two of the most fascinating topics there are. I think the fact that there are so many posts indicates that others think the same. And when everyone discusses this - we get to understand everyone's position just a little better and maybe gain more respect for each other.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:12 pm

Ryan Salo wrote:Bryan

I am sure that you are smart enough to know that there are scientists on both sides of this issue just like the evolution issue. So when you say scientists have proven anything I am sure you know that there are other scientists "proving" the opposite. I will give your side credit that they are interpreting the data to the best of their ability but I hope you don't assume that those of us that think like I do don't have any research or "scientific evidence" of our own.

As a person of faith myself, I have a very deep respect for your position and understand where you are coming from. And while I may deeply disagree with you here, I do wish for you the best in life and have enjoyed the fact that you have enough conviction to stand up for what you believe.

My final question to you would be that the Bible also highly condemns usury (the lending of money with interest). As a mortgage broker, how do you reconcile being in a field that is morally wrong in the Bible?

I ask this not to be a wise-you know what, but rather to help you see that not everyone takes the Bible 100% literally, even yourself. Interpretation is necessary...and God's gift of an intellect to us is his way of telling us to do so.

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:21 pm

Bryan,

I hope one day you will see that just because I state that an act is wrong I am not judging you as an individual.

Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins" (James 5:20).

Gal. 6:1: "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently.

I am not one to throw stones. I have plenty of faults in my life, but I will not let you tell me that someday I will grow to learn that I should accept this. I believe this is wrong, not based on ignorance or lack of proper information and studies, but based on the Bible and the fact that this is not a natural act, no offspring will ever come of it.

I hope and pray for nothing but the best for you. It was nice blogging with you.

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:29 pm

Bryan Schwegler wrote:
Ryan Salo wrote:Bryan

I am sure that you are smart enough to know that there are scientists on both sides of this issue just like the evolution issue. So when you say scientists have proven anything I am sure you know that there are other scientists "proving" the opposite. I will give your side credit that they are interpreting the data to the best of their ability but I hope you don't assume that those of us that think like I do don't have any research or "scientific evidence" of our own.
As a person of faith myself, I have a very deep respect for your position and understand where you are coming from. And while I may deeply disagree with you here, I do wish for you the best in life and have enjoyed the fact that you have enough conviction to stand up for what you believe.

My final question to you would be that the Bible also highly condemns usury (the lending of money with interest). As a mortgage broker, how do you reconcile being in a field that is morally wrong in the Bible?

I ask this not to be a wise-you know what, but rather to help you see that not everyone takes the Bible 100% literally, even yourself. Interpretation is necessary...and God's gift of an intellect to us is his way of telling us to do so.

I think you are reference Leviticus 25:35-38, even though you don't mention it. It is talking about debts to the poor who cannot afford the payments. Today that would be called predatory lending, which I do not do.

Matthew 25:27 talks about banks and interest which was OK. So I have no problem lending people money to buy homes.

It was a good question and I would be happy to answer any others you have.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:32 pm

Ryan Salo wrote:I hope one day you will see that just because I state that an act is wrong I am not judging you as an individual.

I trust you that you don't believe you are attacking my personally. However I just think it's difficult to not condemn me personally when you are condemning everything about who I am.

I am not one to throw stones. I have plenty of faults in my life, but I will not let you tell me that someday I will grow to learn that I should accept this.

I'm not saying you need to accept the morality of it, you are entitled to believe what you wish. What I'm hoping you eventually will come to see is that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they should have their rights actively denied. That is not the principal on which this country was founded. Equality and respect for all people, even the minority or the disenfranchised should be actively fought for and defended.

I hope and pray for nothing but the best for you. It was nice blogging with you.

I appreciate that Ryan. As I said, even though we disagree here, I have a lot of respect for you for sticking up for your convictions.

Ryan Salo · Post by **Ryan Salo** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:56 pm

Bryan,

One last question.

You say "What I'm hoping you eventually will come to see is that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they should have their rights actively denied. "

Where does this end? With this sexual freedom movement should the Man Boy love association get federal approval to have civil unions with children? Should prostitution be legal throughout the land? Should pornography be available to minors?

We were founded on moral principles, whether you like them or not, we need to protect them.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:14 pm

Ryan Salo wrote:Bryan,

One last question.

You say "What I'm hoping you eventually will come to see is that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they should have their rights actively denied. "

Where does this end? With this sexual freedom movement should the Man Boy love association get federal approval to have civil unions with children? Should prostitution be legal throughout the land? Should pornography be available to minors?

We were founded on moral principles, whether you like them or not, we need to protect them.

I'm not going to justify that with a response as it's just insulting. And if you can't tell the difference between a pedophile and a committed homosexual relationship, there is no point in discussing it with you (not to mention this topic was already covered in the Boy Scout thread).

Instead let me ask you this. If your moral code should be enforced and therefore anything not adhering to it discouraged, should we start removing rights from non-Christians, athiests, etc? They don't follow beliefs you would consider moral, so what is your plan for them?

What about women who have abortions. Should they be allowed to marry? Sent to prison? Stripped of voting rights?