Tax Rates Driving people out of Lakewood!?

[Jeff Endress]

Most people need a mortgage to buy a house. When calculating your ability to pay the lender always takes into consideration the property taxes. The higher the taxes the less house you can afford.

Not quite correct Bill. The higher the taxes, the less MORTGAGE you can afford. A 200 K house in Avon or Medina is much "less house" than a 200K house in Lakewood. Before we added on, we looked at comparables in River. At least 20% more just to stay even.

Again, it's an equation. You have to consider all the elements to determine your TOTAL housing costs.

Jeff

[Shawn Juris]

While it is fun to discuss and pose counterpoints to points, I'm sure that we can all agree that it's a matter of perspective. Dee and Brett both make good points about why a choice is made to move to an area that goes beyond more tangible numerically based decisions. Even within these relative tangibles you face a value judgement though. For instance, it is great that when you need the police they respond quickly. On the other hand it could be seen as intimidating or troublesome to have 4 squad cars with their lights on either chasing down the street or blocking the road in front of one of our "finer" apartment buildings. All just perception. They are doing their job and being vigilant. The further statistics would be what type of crime statistics we have but again they'll support whatever position you may have.
Houses can be seen as cozy or crowded, neighbors can be seen as nosey or engaged, situations can be seen as potentials for improvement or problems. While I can appreciate optimism at times and understand that the agenda of the Observer is to promote Lakewood, the sugary sweet, we have no moles to speak of rhetoric really makes me wonder if there is enough concern to actually change anything. No commercial income, high taxes, deteriorating roads, more problems with residents... if these things aren't allowed to be talked about and those that do are villified and marginalized as not having a worthy opinion, what's the result? MORE OF THE SAME PROBLEMS. They will not just go away because the LO advisory board relabels every issue that turns people off. Then again with all the "brain drain" maybe there are just enough people to be fooled by packaging over substance.

[Jim O'Bryan]

While I can appreciate optimism at times and understand that the agenda of the Observer is to promote Lakewood, the sugary sweet, we have no moles to speak of rhetoric really makes me wonder if there is enough concern to actually change anything. No commercial income, high taxes, deteriorating roads, more problems with residents... if these things aren't allowed to be talked about and those that do are villified and marginalized as not having a worthy opinion, what's the result? MORE OF THE SAME PROBLEMS. They will not just go away because the LO advisory board relabels every issue that turns people off. Then again with all the "brain drain" maybe there are just enough people to be fooled by packaging over substance.

Shawn

You lack of understanding of the LO Project is now becoming legendary. The job of the Observer is not to promote Lakewood. We send less than 2,000 papers outside of the city.

Go read the Mission Statement, this is what the paper is about, nothing more nothing less.

We have found that by turning profits back into the city we can do marvelous things to empower many others to help make the city better.

It is working. Half of the programs the Chamber has announced in the past year have come right out of our offices. Of course they are not done the way they should done, but what can one expect.

I believe the Lakewood Observer is the only group to put money where their mouth is. Funding everything from civic groups to scholarships.

I also believe we have the only pathway that makes sense for Lakewood, but it is not a mandatory program that people are forced to take part in. All add to life in Lakewood at the cost of no one.

One program puts up to $700 a month into businesses. The Chamber does? One help pays for store front renovation, using other Lakewood Businesses, the Chamber? One brings businesses together at NO COST to discuss the problems and find solution to their problems at NO COST, The Chamber? In the next month you will see us offer residents, businesses and non-profits programs that is second to none. Cost $0.00

It never ceases to amaze me that you speak so much about something you have never even tried to understand.

But I have grown used to it. just want to set the record straight.


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[Bill Call]

And as its been pointed out, many low-tax cities are also high home priced so it kind of balances. Except in places like Shaker which are high taxes AND high prices.

If you look at the data you will see that as a percentage of income a Lakewood resident pays more for property taxes than other communities. Jeff is comparing apples to watermelons when he compares the 3,000 square foot Avon home on a quarter acre lot with the 1,400 square foot home on a 1/10 acre lot in Lakewood.

The underlying assumption is that high taxes do not affect behavior. I think they do you think they don't. You are willing to believe that people will drive to Avon Commons to save on groceries but are unwilling to move to Avon to save money on taxes.

Let's do a little thought experiment. Assume that Lakewood initiates a 20% surcharge on all legal fees in Lakewood. If your assumptions are correct (taxes do not affect behavior) then lawyers will pay the tax without comment. In addition to that, when a law firm is looking for a place to relocate the 20% surcharge will have no affect on the decision.

I sense the bureaucracy is setting the stage for its 3% solution.

[Dee Martinez]

[ You are willing to believe that people will drive to Avon Commons to save on groceries but are unwilling to move to Avon to save money on taxes.

I believe that the place you choose to call home is more of a personal and life-defining decision than the place you choose to buy ground beef.
My contention is only that the fact that "as a percentage of income a Lakewood resident pays more for property taxes than other communities" is secondary to if you can see your "stuff" in the living room and if there's a sunny patch to grow your tomatoes.
And clearly YOU are still here, so there must be some emotional element for you too?

[Bill Call]

I believe that the place you choose to call home is more of a personal and life-defining decision than the place you choose to buy ground beef.

YOU are still here, so there must be some emotional element for you too?

Excellent point worthy of its own post.

Why do you stay? (Not you as in you but you as in you all)

[Jeff Endress]

If you look at the data you will see that as a percentage of income a Lakewood resident pays more for property taxes than other communities. Jeff is comparing apples to watermelons when he compares the 3,000 square foot Avon home on a quarter acre lot with the 1,400 square foot home on a 1/10 acre lot in Lakewood.

Bill, you just don't want to understand my point. The cost of housing involves much more than merely the payment of taxes. You choose to focus solely on the rate of tax, but unless you factor in all that encompasses the cost of housing, you truly do have an apples to watermelon comparison. Take a 1400 square foot house from Lakewod, put it on a 1/4 acre lot in Avon. Sure the taxes will be less, but the cost of that same house will be substantially more, making the TOTAL housing cost greater. And they do have such things in Avon. They're called condos, and they start north of 200K with monthly assessments. You can't rationally view it in a vacuum. The cost of the asset on which the tax is paid should have at least some minimal effect on whether the house is affordable.

And Dee, for what it's worth, your point is well taken. Having lived in the same home for 27 years, brought home kids, improvements, holidays and watched my daffodils come up in the Spring, you can't divorce the element of emotional attachment. I was seeking merely to give a bean counter analysis to the contention that high taxes in Lakewood are forcing an exodus.

Jeff

[Dan Slife]

So Shawn,

When are you going to move?

[Shawn Juris]

Time will tell Dan. I really would like to see Lakewood do well but I'm not the only one that I need to think of anymore. So I'll have to weigh things out as they come along and we'll see where it goes. If it does come to moving, at least I'll know that I've done whatever I can to avoid it.

Jim, Have a great weekend.