Citistat - That Urinal Hasn't Worked in Months

Lynn Farris · Post by **Lynn Farris** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:59 pm

Mr. Rice,

I have heard a host of explanations about why the urinal is running from a wide variety of people. But the one consistent thing I keep hearing is that it will not be fixed. Why?

1) We have bacteria in our water and this keeps it down - this begs the question - if we have bacteria in our water, shouldn't we fix the root cause instead of waste water?

2) It keeps the pipes from freezing. This isn't a trickle (which is wasteful enough) it is a urinal running. Again, wouldn't it be cheaper to fix the root cause not waste money and water? I'm assuming it is on the outside wall - there are ways to insulate the pipes to avoid this type of problem. Are we employing this "keeping the pipes from freezing strategy" in other city buildings for the toilets/urinals? If it is for pipes freeezing, why was this discovered in the summer and not addressed? Normally letting water trickle to keep pipes from freezing as you were told, Mr. Rice is only employed when the temperatures are such that water can freeze.

To me, the only thing worse about having the urinal running for now almost a year, is the fact that our city in a year hasn't found a solution to this problem.

Come on, if the administration can't solve this little problem, how can we expect them to solve the big ones?

Donald Farris · Post by **Donald Farris** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:44 pm

Hi,
Does anyone know the cost per gallon of water? This would include both the cost of the water plus the cost to treat the water as sewage.

I searched and found the following reference:

Discussion was had regarding cost per gallon.
Councilmember Madigan indicated the discrepancy was significant enough to be noted.
Councilmember Demro stated that Council and the Administration should be aware of what the City is paying for water.

Motion by Mr. Seelie, seconded by Councilmember Madigan, to amend the report to delete the sentence referencing cost per gallon.

See: http://www.lkwdpl.org/city/cc/mt060117.htm

The reason I ask is I wanted to quantify the cost of just this one leak. I know we can't get an actual cost because our City does not meter its consumption of water. But I made the following calculations: If the urinal was a 1 gallon per flush toilet and its running continuously I thought we could say it is running continuously at .2 gal per minute flow (its probably running faster than that). I know it's been running for over a year (probably longer - anyone in Public Works know for sure?). So there are 525,600 minutes in a year. That times .2 gal per minute gives us 105,120 gallons of water wasted. Does anyone know what that cost us in dollars?

My water bill is packed full of words but nothing I could see to explain what I am charged per gallon. Maybe someone from the Administration or Council could let us know what the cost of 1 year's worth of this one leak is.

PS. If freezing is a real problem perhaps the City should consider waterless urinals, which are employed in places that care about conserving water.

Suzanne Metelko · Post by **Suzanne Metelko** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:31 am

Gary,

Love the song and this could be pretty funny if those weren't tax dollars going down that drain......

Suzanne

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:33 pm

Hey everybody!

I am pleased to report that as of today, (4-23-07) the urinal in Lakewood Park is no longer running.

I have been in contact with the Mayor, who supplied a prompt response, stating that now with winter behind us, (and the risk of freezing pipes has past), the running urinal has been stopped at the Woman's Pavilion at Lakewood Park.

The mayor also informed me that in spite of the running water, the City saved money overall, by having lower heating costs for the Woman's Pavilion all winter.

I am satisfied, both with the Mayor's explanation and the action's rationale.

Looks like we need a final verse to SING!

The urinal at Lakewood Park has finally been fixed.
This has saved more money, 'cause the heating bills were nixed.
But I will miss those waters, 'cause they gave us all good "kicks"!
The toilet's now been stopped!

Lakewood urinals forever (3x)
The toilet's now been stopped!

David Scott · Post by **David Scott** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:04 pm

Mr Rice - I don't know you, and I don't want to question your competance - but if the Mayor comes out the day that the urinal is fixed after being silent for nine months and comes up with the load of garbage that it actually saved money - then I am more upset that the man takes me for a fool then anything else he has ever not done.

Danielle Masters · Post by **Danielle Masters** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:22 pm

but if the Mayor comes out the day that the urinal is fixed after being silent for nine months and comes up with the load of garbage that it actually saved money - then I am more upset that the man takes me for a fool then anything else he has ever not done.

I don't buy it either. I just have to wonder once again why the Mayor is so quick to list his endorsements on the deck but isn't willing to update us on certain issues, ie. running urinals, graffiti, etc.

David Anderson · Post by **David Anderson** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:31 pm

Does this mean that if the city wishes to keep the thermostat down the leak must be reinstated by November to keep the pipes from freezing next winter? (What a grammatically awkward sentence to even have to think about writing.)

Lynn Farris · Post by **Lynn Farris** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:02 pm

Hey that is great news Gary.

But I am curious, I found in my experience that the cost of employing this technique was significantly more - and it was when we were using a trickle of water - not a full running urinal. So I am curious as to the numbers.

1) What was this year's cost of water as compared to the year before last's cost (assuming of course the water wasn't running all that year.) Do we know the price of a gallon of water that Don requested yet?

2) What was the cost of heating the building this year as compared to the year before last?

3) Can we figure out how much money we are actually saving? If we can't quantify this, how can we make this statement - is it a gut feeling that this saves money - or is it quantifiable? Is this because the heat is metered and the water isn't so any heat savings helps the city while the cost of the water gets directly passed on to the tax payers? That isn't a savings in my book.

4) Why did they leave the water on last summer?

5) Are we employing this technique of letting water run to save pipes at other locations - say the Madison Bath House?

6) How many months does the administration employ this technique per year?

7) Has there been any consideration of replacing these urinals with waterless urinals to save even more money? and the environment?

DougHuntingdon · Post by **DougHuntingdon** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:20 pm

If anyone is going to attack the mayor, I think it should be for official statements or for things observed firsthand, not what we are hearing 2nd/3rd hand (and I mean no offense Gary). Having said that, the urinal debacle could easily lead one to believe that there are even bigger problems with city government.

As far as waterless urinals, I have seen them in Canada and think they are nasty (although Canada tends to be much cleaner than the US). I suppose they are at least a step up from latrines. :/

Doug

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:21 pm

All of you have good questions, and David, thanks for not questioning my competence....as I am, after all, only the messenger here.

I have another question however. Of all the bellyaching that we've done on this thread, (including me!) how many actually thought to contact the Mayor directly?

That's what I finally did.

At any rate, at least the thing got fixed.

Instead of Kumbayah, at least we don't have to sing "Michael Row the Boat Ashore"! :-)

Have a great week all!

Lynn Farris · Post by **Lynn Farris** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:31 pm

Well last summer, at the Democratic Club meeting, as I mentioned here before, Don saw the urinal running and went and got the mayor immediately. After having our own building, we know how much a leaking toilet can run up your water bill in just 1 month. It is an incredible cost.

Don followed up the following month at the Democratic Club meeting when the urinal was still running and was told there was nothing that could be done.

This was last spring or early summer. We stopped nagging the Mayor about it (note: Kumbaya playing in the background) until the Citisat report indicated that it was a cost.

But you got him to fix the urinal, so good job. Thank you for contacting him again.

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:45 pm

Just a hopefully entertaining revisit to a classical 'Deck discourse on an otherwisw slow newsday... :roll:

With this quote from George Santayana: "Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
:D