Is the City of Lakewood on a Hiring Binge?

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:45 pm

Gary Rice wrote:As to retirement or health care dollars? At nearly every contract, teachers have had to assume a greater percentage of these expenses. Teachers have been forced to help fund those underfunded mandates out of their own pockets.

Gold-plated health plans, my petunia!

Even after we teachers retire, STRS (teachers' retirement) reminds us that our group health program is a courtesy, and not a legal obligation on their part.

Compare what teachers receive in terms of health care and their retirement dollars (I know, both my sister and cousin teach in Lakewood) to the normal corporate worker, I think it's a whole lot better.

It may not be enough of what you'd like, but compared to the non-government worker, it certainly is gold-plated, especially given the low amount (if any) teachers are expected to contribute towards it.

Heck, at least you receive health care as part of retirement, most of the rest of the people don't.

But in the end, I guess it's all about perspective. I think teachers deserve alot more than they get, but trying to pretend the health care and retirement system aren't well above what the average American worker gets is not good logic IMHO.

Gary, I don't want you to take this an attack on teachers, I have a great deal of respect for them. As I said both my sister and cousin teach at LHS. While I think teachers don't get enough credit, and there might be other areas of the contract that are lacking, the retirement and health care provisions are better than most Americans receive.

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:50 pm

Bryan,

I appreciate the intent of your remarks, but like so many people viewing teachers from outside of the profession, there are a few components missing from your analogy.

First, to clarify. At the present time, STRS offers us a group policy at retirement. Like anyone else, we have to PAY for that policy. STRS does help us out, but does not guarantee that they will offer group policies forever. Our premiums also adjust (read-go up) from time to time.

We DO NOT GET free health care at retirement.

The amount that a working teacher pays towards their medical insurance is negotiated by each school district, by contract. The insurance carrier for each district can change as well. Like other professions, the last 10 years have seen severe nationwide erosion of benefits, and increased out-of-pocket expenses for teachers, as your relatives will attest.

Remember too, that in private industry, continuing education, and even perks like autos, free lunches, travel expenses, and profit-sharing all exist, while teachers generally are required to take classes all the time, and pay their own way, as well. Those "summers off" that people like to criticize us for, are a myth these days, again, as your relatives will attest.

If teachers' health care and retirement benefits are, as you say "well above average", (and I would dispute that, as we have the same type of group coverage generally available to companies) then it's the result of negotiated agreements rather than special treatment.

Attacks on the teaching profession have become unrelenting and severe. All we teachers want to do is teach your children, for fair pay, with reasonable medical care assistance. Far too often, any salary raises that we get are soon eaten up by more college expenses.

Oh yes, we're allowed to write off a couple hundred dollars classroom expenses on our taxes. Big whoopie. I'll bet I spent over a thousand dollars a year on my students frequently, when I taught.

For all this, we are abused by the public beyond measure.

Therefore unequivocally, I reject and repudiate your perceptions in the strongest possible terms.

I am a teacher. It is an honorable profession. It is worth your support.

And yes, I have a right and a duty to demand better wages, benefits, and working conditions. Teachers are worth every dime you spend.

In fact, you still get a bargain with us.

Gary Rice,

Past Executive Board Officer (retired)
Parma Education Association

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:34 pm

Gary Rice wrote:Therefore unequivocally, I reject and repudiate your perceptions in the strongest possible terms.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree on this. Just as you say my perception of what teachers receive is inaccurate, I can absolutely guarantee your belief in the largesse of the corporate world is also incorrect.

I can guarantee you, with the highest level of accuracy, that a majority of Americans do not receive the perks you claim private employment brings.

You are obviously highly emotionally attached to your profession and that's admirable. But please, re-read what I said. I'm not disputing the need for support of our teachers and I believe they are underpaid in general for what they do. You'll get no argument from me on that.

However, what I am challenging is your assertion that teacher health care and retirement benefits (and contributions from the employer in the case of LSD) is no better than private employment. That is unequivocally false. Let's find all those Walmart employees (the largest private employer in America) and ask them if they think their benefits are equal or better than a public school teacher. I think the answer would be no.

Again, it's all about looking at things in the proper perspective.

DougHuntingdon · Post by **DougHuntingdon** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:42 pm

http://odevax.ode.state.oh.us/htbin/dis ... uyahoga%29

http://www.lakewoodcityschools.org/ (site down as of this moment - linked from both google and the library website)

below also from ode.state.oh.us (asp so could not link)

District Details

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lakewood
District IRN: 044198
County: Cuyahoga
District Rating: Continuous Improvement
Number of Performance Standards Met by the School District (based on FY2006 data Ã¢â‚¬â€œ 2005-06 Local Report Card): 20

Test Percentage of Students Who Passed Test
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 3rd Grade Reading Achievement Test (2005-06) 81.5
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 3rd Grade Reading Achievement Test (2004-05) 84.5
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 3rd Grade Reading Achievement Test (2003-04) 79.4
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 3rd Grade Math Achievement Test (2005-06) 78.9
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 3rd Grade Math Achievement Test ( 2004-05) 80.5
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 4th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2005-06) 79.1
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 4th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2004-05) 78.6
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 4th Grade Math Achievement Test (2005-06) 78.1
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 4th Grade Writing Achievement Test (2005-06) 88.7
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 4th Grade Writing Achievement Test (2004-05) 80.2
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 5th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2005-06) 82.9
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 5th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2004-05) 83.2
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 5th Grade Math Achievement Test (2005-06) 73.9
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 6th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2005-06) 88.6
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 6th Grade Math Achievement Test (2005-06) 70.0
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 7th Grade Reading Achievement Test (2005-06) 88.3
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 7th Grade Math Achievement Test (2005-06) 78.3
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 7th Grade Math Achievement Test (2004-05) 67.6
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 8th Grade Reading AchievementTest (2005-06) 74.9
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 8th Grade Reading AchievementTest (2004-05) 84.7
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 8th Grade Math AchievementTest (2005-06) 71.7
Percentage of Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the 8th Grade Math Achievement Test (2004-05) 66.8
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Social Studies Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 82.3
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Social Studies Ohio Graduation Test (2004-05) 87.2
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Math Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 85.3
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Math Ohio Graduation Test (2004-05) 88.0
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Math Ohio Graduation Test (2003-04) 79.1
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Reading Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 90.5
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Reading Ohio Graduation Test (2004-05) 94.9
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Reading Ohio Graduation Test (2003-04) 83.8
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Writing Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 90.5
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Writing Ohio Graduation Test (2004-05) 86.6
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Science Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 74.8
Percentage of 10th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Science Ohio Graduation Test (2004-05) 79.6
Cumulative percentage of 11th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Social Studies Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 91.1
Cumulative percentage of 11th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Math Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 91.6
Cumulative percentage of 11th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Reading Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 94.8
Cumulative percentage of 11th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Writing Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 93.3
Cumulative percentage of 11th Grade Students Who Scored Proficient or Higher on the Science Ohio Graduation Test (2005-06) 85.5
Student Attendance Rate (2005-06) 94.5
Student Attendance Rate (2004-05) 94.4
Student Attendance Rate (2003-04) 94.9
Student Graduation Rate (2005-06) 90.3
Student Graduation Rate (2004-05) 89.9
Student Graduation Rate (2003-04) 87.7
School Performance Index Score (2005-06) 96.3
School Performance Index Score (2004-05) 93.9
School Performance Index Score (2003-04) 87.6
School's AYP Determination (2005-06) Not Met

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:38 pm

And Bryan wrote:

However, what I am challenging is your assertion that teacher health care and retirement benefits (and contributions from the employer in the case of LSD) is no better than private employment. That is unequivocally false.

Bryan,

Repudiating your perceptions was certainly not calling you a liar. Nor will I permit you to accuse me of a falsehood. Nor do I believe that is really your intent.

I just think that the brush you are painting with, might be a bit broad.

When we make our point and counter point, we need to choose our terminology with care.

In the first place, I agree with you that far too many companies, (many or most of whom are non-union), offer superficial or inadequate health care plans, if they offer any at all. In areas where health care coverage is required for full-time workers, companies often hire employees with just enough hours to be short of being full-time.

Unfortunately, so many of the workers whom you are alluding to, are in positions not requiring degrees or specialized training, as teachers have.

Regarding retirement, we've heard many stories about private-sector employees being terminated just before they could collect pensions.

For employees having college degrees, or special skills required, many companies do indeed offer all that I indicated, and more.

I confess however, to being at a loss regarding your LSD remark. I do not remember ever being offered a benefit like that ;-)

I think we both are closer in our positions than might appear to the casual reader.

Thanks for your contributions. I know that you care.

As you said so well yourself: It's all about looking at things in the proper perspective.

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:36 am

Gary Rice wrote:I just think that the brush you are painting with, might be a bit broad.

That might be true, but I think in this case we both are.

For employees having college degrees, or special skills required, many companies do indeed offer all that I indicated, and more.

I actually read a recent BusinessWeek article on the subject of corporate perks. To be honest, a college degree doesn't buy you a whole lot, or at least not as much as it used to.

I would say maybe about 10%-15% of employees may receive some of the perks you had listed before. It's certainly not a large amount. And while many companies may offer some or all of those perks, only the top executives usually receive them.

I think we both are closer in our positions than might appear to the casual reader.

I think that's also probably very much the case. As I said, I think teachers often deserve more credit. However, my point is that teachers are not scraping the bottom when compared to the average American worker. That's perhaps why teachers get so little empathy from the electorate as a whole.

When you've got Sally Walmart scraping by at minimum wage trying to support her 3 children without healthcare because she can't afford the Walmart plan and then the school district wants a new levy passed so the teachers don't have to pay any part of the healthcare or the school district wants to pay the teacher's portion of the retirement plan, etc, etc, it's a hard sell.

Just to reiterate: While I might personally believe teachers are underpaid and don't get enough credit for what they do, it's a hard sell to many American workers. Hence, the animosity and difficulty that many districts have in passing levies.

If it were up to me, I'd have teachers and pro-athletes trade salaries. I for the life of me cannot understand why some big, dumb, cry baby athlete will get millions of dollars, but we don't pay our teachers a salary commensurate with their great responsibilities.

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 am

Bryan,

Just as I thought. we have much to agree about.

No doubt about it in my mind, the last 25 or so years have been brutal on pension funds and benefit packages for American workers, including teachers.

You are also right in that at least teachers often have pretty good plans, depending on the district where they teach, but with each new contract, those plans are challenged by boards of education, and with each year passing, teachers seem to get closer and closer to losing their benefits.

You are again right in that teachers take hits as well. For what we teach, how we teach, how we discipline, how much and what kind of training we need.

It's just too bad though.

Seems like just about everyone thinks they know more about teaching, than teachers.

Schools continue to be the stepchild of the American Dream. We underfund and overmanage our worn out curriculums. In droves, we are driving our best and brightest teachers out the door and into industry, or to districts where the pay and benefits at least begin to approach a decent level. Two of my special ed teacher friends are leaving their districts this year, as a matter of fact.

Some of your co-posters seem to enjoy number-crunching. I would suggest that they compare Lakewood teaching salaries with other suburbs.

If we fail to keep pace, we will lose, and fail to attract more and more quality teachers.

And we wonder why there is a teacher shortage.....

Thanks for your care, and your thoughts. You are needed.

Danielle Masters · Post by **Danielle Masters** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:46 am

If we fail to keep pace, we will lose, and fail to attract more and more quality teachers.

And we wonder why there is a teacher shortage.....

I hear this and it really floors me. I have many friends that can't find teaching positions here. I know of good young teachers that weren't offered their positions back this year. And I don't know the numbers but Lakewood has plenty of applicants. I just don't see where the teacher shortages are. And it can't be because class sizes are getting larger, they are actually pretty small. At least in Lakewood I have never heard complaints about their pay, they seem to be getting paid a decent wage and I wouldn't want them to not be. Just my two cents.

Gary Rice · Post by **Gary Rice** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:56 am

Hi Danielle,

Although I'm not aware of Lakewood's particular staffing needs, in our area, teacher shortages seem to presently be in particular fields.

In other areas of the US, there is a greater shortage.

Some of these areas offer great bonuses and perks, as well.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:13 am

Gary and Danielle

Part of the equation, beyond wages, is working environment. Given the choice between a suburan system and Cleveland, Detroit, or major metropolitan systems, I'm sure there are many who would choose the suburban system, even at a lesser wage. I know there are many qualified teahcers who would love to teach in Lakewood, but have not been offered a position. That there is a talented pool waiting for those jobs as they become avaiable speaks not only to the teaching environment, the school sytem, but also the salary/benefits package. Which is, I think, Gary's point. Those who fail at either providing a good teaching environment, a competitive salary structure will no no longer have a group of qualified teachers looking for positions.

Jeff

Grace O'Malley · Post by **Grace O'Malley** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:56 am

A quick comment on teacher shortages.

I believe there is a shortage of qualified secondary and middle school certified mathematics and science teachers. Teachers with these qualifications usually have no trouble finding employment.

Primary school teachers do have a tough time finding new employment opportunities, as do middle and secondary language arts, history and social studies teachers.

Its just a function of supply and demand.