SWAT On Fry

[Mark Crnolatas]

Jim,
While you addressed the question to Kevin, and I think Kevin will answer when he sees the question, I happened to run across it. I know from the past, when my company was working with several P.D's, a person who attempts suicide, is generally taken to a psychiatric dept. of a local hospital for evaluation, their own protection, and therapy.

If anything has changed, Kevin can sure give the details.

[ryan costa]

Why do S.W.A.T teams always use tear gas? Is there a thorazine gas available?

[Kevin Galvin]

Jim,

OK, first, if I offended you, I apologize. I think you know how I feel about Lakewood. For those that don't know, Jim and I have spoken over time and I have bemoaned the fact that when I started with LPD 29 yrs. ago you couldn't drive five blocks without passing a street where a Lakewood cop lived. More than half the department lived in town. I've been retired for several years now so I don't know exactly but I would guess that there are probably around ten that live here now. That disappoints me.

Jim, you commented that it was made clear that the "man was stashed here". I have the paper in front of me and I don't see anything that would indicate that. Perhaps I am missing it. That is why I asked that the paper be read as if you have no other knowledge of the incident. Part of my job as a Sgt. was to review reports submitted by officers. The purpose was to make sure elements of a crime were included and that all pertinent facts were in the proper order. I often had to return reports to officers explaining that what they put on paper would be reviewed ad nauseum by several layers of lawyers and courts and that the report was a reflection of that officer. (Perhaps nuns and rulers have something to do with my pickieness over the word "Mad" when referrring to a human being) Angry or distraught come to mind as an alternative. If mad is a description given by someone then a comment that indicates "His mom said he was mad" also would have been acceptable.

Something that it difficult from a reporting standpoint is that the reporter knows much more than what is put on paper. It's easy to forget that the reader does not know something that anyone involved knows already. It is neccessary to assume that the reader, who was not there, knows absolutely nothing except what is being written. It's easy to second guess when you are not under time constraints and I truly understand that everyone is volunteering their time and energy. That being said, a line similar to "A man presumed to have mental problems." takes the author off the hook of making a medical claim. You asked how I would refer to someone who was doing what this guy was doing. People shooting the bull would have many colorful adjectives for him and I'm sure you can imagine what was being said in the police report room. What actually hit the police reports would have clearly been different.

I guess my point in my earlier post was that the people who will use this and similar incidents to bad mouth Lakewood will not be swayed no matter what you or I say about our hometown. The headlines seemed to me to be defensive in nature when the article says nothing about his connection to Avon Lake. The way I saw the incident was that a Lakewood resident who had apparent mental problems threatened the community and excellent work by our safety forces led to a peaceful resolution of the situation.

In answer to your question about what happens "after the fact", I am basing this on when I was there, but I am guessing it will be close. A person who makes an overt attack towards suicide (which this guy certainly did) or who expresses a desire to harm himself or others or when a family member gets a court order to have someone evaluated the following will happen: That person will be taken to a local emergency room for medical evaluation. This will include treatment of any wounds inflicted and they will then be medically cleared for transport to ...A hospital that used to be called CPI (for Cleveland Psychiatric Institute) I am not sure of the new name. That person is then observed in a locked down facility for 72 hrs so that a pyschiatrist can determine if they can be safely released back into the community. Note that none of this precludes criminal prosecution for inducing panic or other appropriatte charges.

Mr. Costa,

You asked about why tear gas was used. (The thorazine gas question, if not meant in jest, I don't know. I never heard of such a gas.) Why the tear gas is used is part of a continuim of force of sorts. Think of it as an increasing level of force used to control a situation. This level can and does go up and back down throughout any situation. You start with the simple presence of a uniformed officer possibly convincing someone to cooperate. If the subject refuses, a verbal order is tried and then minimal physical force may be tried. (Placing your hand on a subject's elbow combined with an order to comply. The levels increase until cooperation results. Upon hearing or believing that this subject was reaching the point where he was about to cause the explosion a decision was made to increase the level of force against this person in order to force compliance.

Somewhat in defense of my earlier post, the term madmen was used in Mr. Warren's article. The exact quote was "In all these hostage situations with madmen from other cites coming to Lakewood and acting out violently...." That certainly implies that someone from outside the city came here to cause a problem. Since the guy lived in Lakewood, when is he no longer "from Avon Lake"? If he is never a Lakewoodite, then we have very few of us who have lived here forever.

In closing I would like to say that I have the utmost respect for all the work being done by the members of the Observer staff. It is obvious to me that all of you care a great deal about the city where I was born, raised, and chose to raise my children. I simply felt that our safety forces did a great job handling a problem caused by one of our residents. However he got here, this man is a Lakewood resident. We take a back seat to no one and don't need to apologize for our residents.

As an aside to the comments about crime stats: Approx. 15 yrs. ago we had three murders within a week or so. It was an absolute abberation where domestic violence exploded and then things returned to normal. People need to forget about these two incidents being so close in time. If the woman on Coutant had come home a couple hours later and the man had completed his suicide, no one would have heard about it.

Take care all.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim,

OK, first, if I offended you, I apologize.

Kevin

We are always cool. I just wanted to let you and others know, as with the Kenny piece we are very sensitive to all sides in these moments and what we put in the paper.

You raise good points. My problem is not just my spelling skills, but my writing skills. I tell a story better than I can report. Last week I took off to photograph the young adults with the train model. When I got there no pen, no paper. Typically Jimmy unprepared for class. But your comments are duly noted and appreciated.

If we could only find a retired Lakewood police officer, to help us through these rough periods. Hmmmmmmmmmm. You know one that understands why gas is used and what will happen. Hmmmmmmmmmm wonder where we could find that man.

Kevin as always thanks for the input.


.

[Gary Rice]

Jim,

First of all, thank you for your kind words. The time you spend on these topics with all of us shows your interest and passion for all things Lakewood.

Seeing your interchange with Kevin, and watching with interest, the discussion about descriptive language that has been applied to people in the paper (and with these threads), has brought my memories back to the classroom.

Kevin and I dealt with the public for many years, as police officer and teacher, respectively. We had no choice whatsoever over whom we might have to deal with. We had to measure our words, and our responses carefully, knowing full well that the least little slip-up- or innuendo, or scarcasm could lead to our being placed onto very public hot seats that could very well be career-enders.

That's why I well understand some of his points, while I also understand the editoral staff's struggle for an accurate depiction of the facts.

I believe that it probably would be safe to say that public sector people like Kevin and myself could relate numerous stories where a single word, or perhaps a momentary loss of control, has ended an otherwise stellar career.

And good intentions, however presented afterwards, may not outweigh the issue brought forth.

All of life is a learning process, I suppose. Thanks to both of you, Jim and Kevin, for your time in making this city a better place for us to live in.

[Kenneth Warren]

Mr. Galvin:

You raise very good points about how people read and write for newspapers, and what happens when popular and professional expectations for credibility are not met. More problematical are the surprises of incredibility that are inevitably bleeding into the print with an experimental DIY enterprise whose wild speed of thought branding impulse is to straddle the history and myth of Lakewood in order to create the only order of local news that will endure the chaos of the 21st century. Such are the stakes in strange fate dealt the publisher, volunteers, readers and writers of the Lakewood Observer.

I realize such complicated elaborations may be very tough to swallow for a just the facts man, which is the primary stance suggested by your post. Here goes, anyway, because your post is generous and sincere in its critique, and quite interesting to me as a fact of experience, formation and language.

As individuals we experience language, the LO and the world in different registers of articulation, credibility, incredibility, intent and perception. That said, I am especially glad you mentioned “it was pounded into me that people get angry, animals go mad,â€Â￾ because I remember a Dominican nun, who seemed quite mad to me in seventh grade back at Holy Ghost School, making a similar case. Perhaps the formation point around angry and mad is a cultural one we might well share as the factual products of Roman Catholic education.

While I get your point, I am not so sure about the great given divide between the human and the animal, between the angel and the ape, between the angry and the mad, which is to my way of thinking more a point of Roman Catholic formation and manners than a fact of accurate and descriptive language. I think it’s fair to say that I know very well the distinction you are making between mad and angry. Only the fact remains I still don’t find its terms accurate, compelling and descriptive enough to advance in the news my perception of these chaos-making agents whose violent behavior truly classifies in English language as more mad than angry. As you can see, the subtext of your post is raising within my mind fascinating questions about Roman Catholic moral indoctrination, and the “spineâ€Â￾ I carry as human rather than animal from that experience in religious formation, even when the language I use diverges from Sister’s instruction. But such matters are best left to speculations, I suppose, in another space and time.

For now let me say the case to limit mad in reference to animals, severely limits my access to the rich register of proper meanings the English language affords me as a citizen journalist hoping to capture an accurate, evocative and surprising description of what I perceived to have happened in Lakewood. Yes, I may not be credible. My frame may seem strange. But my sense of the English language and the meaning of the word mad remain firmly located in the dictionary rather than in the moral formation and strictures I associate with a good Sister’s work to instill into me a Roman Catholic formation. Letting that moral sense go is, of course, what I wagered in this (mad?) effort to put up for the city we love.

Know that I sincerely appreciate your professional training as police officer and your regard for the law and facts in reporting. So I take these moments to extend a prolix spirit of neighborly exchange and gratitude for the intelligence and time you provided in a hope of improving performance at the LO. I know, too, that I may not always feel inclined, much less capable of delivering in the language, style and substance you suggest.

Let me explain, then, my beliefs and intentions. As a LO citizen journalist, pursuing a post-professional mode of writing local news, I do not believe it is necessary to wait for the legal, medical or psychiatric fact to be established in the requisite professional channels in order to apply with veracity the term mad to the man who acted out violently on Fry Avenue, and to the others as well whose violent actions gave rise to SWAT mobilizations. These actions by “outsidersâ€Â￾ are deranged departures from the norms I seek to advance by means of an unscrubbed language that diverges from the rules prescribed to me by the Dominican nun.

The insider/outsider distinction hinges for me - not only in writing this story (but also in answer to questions raised in Ms. Compeau’s thread “An Observationâ€Â￾) - on deranged departures from the good order norms I desire to advance for the city. In this sense, which is not necessarily literal but figural, the madmen/outsiders are compelled by violent anti-social behavior to position themselves outside the norms and laws of the city. In this effort to brand an ideal, the mad/outlaw rubber bounces off the Lakewood road and sticks to some other place of origin. That simple anthropology may not be every brand-builder’s cup of kool-aid, but that’s the home-brew I serve.

To be sure, I was not making “a medical claim.â€Â￾ Instead, I was making a descriptive cultural claim in the common language. That’s why I used the term madmen, mad, etc. That might seem unnecessarily provocative. Yet those words are true to my sense of things and the language I speak.

Shortly after my arrival in Lakewood, Felton Koch, the author of Thought Processing, taught me to eschew “weasel wordsâ€Â￾ and to plunge into the vat of semantic sense that puts me precisely “on the hookâ€Â￾ that baits with both more subject and more object than a traditional newspaper reader expects to catch. To honor this mentor, I prefer not to use distancing effects in my expression– such as "A man presumed to have mental problems."

When Jim O’Bryan suggested putting the distancing effect of “Avon Lakeâ€Â￾ between mad and man, I appreciated the anthropology, the irony and the territorial logic that might spin a sense that the real news was a delusional man - with family roots in a slightly distant place (where many from Lakewood are fleeing) - acting out with violence in his new hometown. Such a move evoked the classic scapegoat response in the effort to create a sense of normality for a ground that was erupting with madness. It was, indeed, the sense of normality that Mayor Tom George as a man of action brought to the ground erupting with madness and managed superbly, I believe, to convey in the newscast I viewed that evening.

With Jim I wagered on irony and reached for normality in the effort to document the good deed, losing the clear, factual sense you expected, and no doubt would prefer when reading a newspaper.

I know also it’s not politically correct in some circles to use the term “mad.â€Â￾ Nevertheless, I don’t believe the language through which this story got told, even with the defects, should be scrubbed of apt vernacular terms like mad or madmen.

Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary established a very clear sense of my intended meanings. These meanings diverge considerably from the sense that a “medical diagnosisâ€Â￾ is required before evoking a disordered and violent register for a man who threatened to blow up a few city blocks, and felt passionately enough about the attempt to subdue him that he pulled tasers from his body and attempted to bite members of force.

I call that mad. Sure there are other ways of saying it. But I don’t think any credibility is lost to the LO because we lack a professional opinion equipped to make sense of the man through Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. In fact, I believe credibility is gained by hazarding its use. For as a citizen journalist, I relied on Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary (1973) to verify and measure my story, rather than the Dominican nun whose instruction might have scrubbed the story into another register, much less the politically correct impulse to avoid the word altogether in a situation that resonated deeply with my sense of mad.

I hope Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary (1973) will allow you to catch my gist:

mad – “disordered in intellect: insane: proceeding from madness: extremely and recklessly foolish: infatuated: frantic with pain, violent passion, or appetite: furious with anger (coll., orig in U.S.) extravagantly playful or exuberant: rabid.â€Â￾ (p 766)

madman – “a man who is mad: a foolish and reckless manâ€Â￾ (p 767

While the pounding you cite as the basis for your distinction between the human and the animal is formative to your sense of the word mad in the world today, I come back to the book Madness and Civilization by Michel Foucault, which I read in my favorite class of all time – Madness and Literature with J. Benjamin Townsend – at SUNY Buffalo, circ ’73.

I would say that madness came to town in the flesh and blood on Saturday, to paraphrase Foucault. In this chaotic situation an artist, a glassblower, broke from his art and his family roots in Avon Lake, bringing with him a deranged sense of himself in relation to propane canisters, the police and the neighborhood. Indeed it was against this chaotic background that I saw our Mayor on the evening news. I believe he came through big-time as the leader of city, our safety forces and volunteers and wanted to document the good deeds in a frame that used the outsider chaos-maker/insider norm-sustainer territorial markers, which could be objectionable to some points of view.

Again, that’s what I am wagering here, how I spin to win, or maybe lose, depending on viewpoint.

The LO is a citizen journalism experiment unlike any other. As a participant, I try to bring my point of view on norms, territory and perceptions about what’s occurring in our city. I would expect much of what I get said to be contested from time to time. In fact, I welcome the LO contest over language, ideas, history, myth, facts and dreams raised to a heightened local pitch with Lakewood neighbors. It’s an unconventional way to tell stories and build brands. But it’s all I have right now. Now if the Jim could convince you to take on the police beat, we could all benefit from his experience and skills with an improved paper…..

Thanks again for the wise words and careful reading. I’ll try to do a better job the next time.

Kenneth Warren

[Kevin Galvin]

Jim,

I have thought of it on occasion but I know I am an opinionanted pain in the butt. I read the deck often and I usually try to wait and wait some more before I respond to an individual thread. Every now and then I feel so strongly about a subject that I will throw in my two cents. I could not in good faith report on something that must put a good spin on Lakewood. I know we have warts and have no problem saying so when I think it is deserved. That being said, I don't believe that we need to defend ourselves for everything that is not perfect. If I ever hear of a perfect city I just might move there.

Mr. Rice said exactly what I was trying to say but he did it clearer and more to the point. The wrong turn of a phrase or an improper polittically incorrect statement can have devastating reprecussions if overheard by the wrong person when that statement is made by a public official or in a public venue. I am only guessing that newspaper reporting would fall into that type of venue. Since most articles always seem to have protective comments like "alledged", "was accused of", "is being investigated for", "is a convicted murderer" and so on then it would seem that publishers have decided that those comments are needed.

Mr. Warren,

Your points are well taken. You made it clear that you received a much better education than I did and you undoubtedly are more well read than I am. For that reason I will defer to you. The distinction that I see is that when you are putting your spin on something or hoping that a reader sees things in a certain way, then you are editorializing. Clearly this has a place in the Observer as well as all newspapers. You are right about me when I read a REPORT of what happened. I watch FOX news and CNN to get two sides of what happened and then I have to try to filter out what was said on both stations so that I can get an idea of what may actually have happened.

Too often my wife would read about something in the paper and question why I didn't mention something. I would read the paper and find that it was a call that I was on and about 90% of what was written was inaccurate. My point is that many people read it in the paper and believe that it must be true. This belief is what can cause libel suits.

Perhaps I should have explained further when I spoke of reviewing officer's reports. It is true that a report may be reviewed by lawyers and judges for years to come, but the first decision is made by jurors. I tried to explain to the officers that the report they were writing had to be understandable to the average juror. Since not many with master's degrees or doctorates end up on a jury a report must be easy to understand for a blue collar type of person.

I shall accept my spanking and return to my lurking status.

Lakewood, warts and all, I love it here.

[Gary Rice]

Well said, Kevin!

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Lakewood, warts and all, I love it here.

Can we get that on a T-shirt?

personally, I don't think lack of officers is a problem here in Lakewood. I think if the officers were equip with better communication and computer technology the response time would get cut in half. 8 of 10 times police officers are at the scene within 5 minutes anyway.

They don't drop out of the sky as soon as you dial 911. They're not Arnold Schwarzenegger and robocop. The PD can do so much with so many officers and less than par communication equipment.

Now we have a great program like CERT, add a few block watches by some local lakewoodites, and you've got improvement.

It seems like every time something big like this occurs, the usual crowd jumps up and says "Lakewood isn't safe!". It takes something drastic to shake people back to reality, yes, but what happens between events like the granger event and the fry event. we were so busy counting AT&T boxes that safety didn't really get discussed on this deck and in the community. was the community more or less safe between the events? is the community unsafe now? and when this whole event slips down the cracks in a month and no one talks about it anymore, it will return to being safe?

I have no problem walking through the streets of cleveland after work when it's dark and i'm by myself. I don't feel like it's unsafe there, and I don't feel like its unsafe here. these are extreme cases that really can't be prevented unless every madman gets his meds shoved down his throat under supervision. Life has an odd way of dealing out the odd cards, and every now and then that might just happen here in Lakewood. Just as it does in every other community everywhere else in the world. It doesn't make us any less safer.

just my 2 cents.

If it sparks a good conversation that we all have something to take from great. if not, oh well. I won't call my politicians about it.

The attitude in the city that all teens are crazy and vigelantes gets on my nerves sometimes. There's the ones that have an opinion and have their vote. whether the older residents like it or not, when it comes to electing a mayor or whoever might have an influence on things like the safety and direction of our city, our vote/opinion is just as valid and powerful as everyone elses.

Sorry, the hospital stay earlier in the week made me do lots of thinking. There's something about that nasty blue paint on the walls and the complete silence that's inspiring.

I can't wait until the BOE race again. I'm really paranoid about shaking hands though, so I don't do it unless I have to anymore. Don't want any germs..getting that stomach virus once is more than enough.
(sorry jim, still headin' upstream. heard it's the more fun way to the promise land)

[Charyn Compeau]

I shall accept my spanking and return to my lurking status.

Please do not.

1000 words, or 20 words, cannot prove your opinion incorrect. The other side of that coin, however, is that those same 1000 or 20 words do not have to agree with your opinion either.

They are all real, valid, and sincere thoughts and certainly you are all part of the community the receives its news; however, it is my opinion that the very fact that you have concerns should be a fact that is considered very thoughtfully.

Unfortunately, what I see again is that instead of looking at your points, and then looking at the reasons why something came to be and finding the common ground, we have engaged in a tit for tat to see who is more correct. In a battle of ones opinion and feelings that has very rarely (in my experience) been a productive route.

While I don't share your concern on this particular point, I don't believe that you were any less correct than Jim, or Ken, and I am glad that you posted and I hope all of our citizen journalists and editors will recall your words as they read over what they have written.

I will.

With warm regards,
Charyn

[Kenneth Warren]

Mr. Galvin:

I’m with Ms. Compeau. Your points about reporting and editorializing, facts and opinions are all very good and worth applying.

Your authority is impeachable. You are considerate and gracious, too. So please never defer to me, especially on the basis of books I’ve read and classes I’ve taken.

It’s a community conversation, and even when we disagree, we are equals and partners always.

With continuing appreciation for your insights,

Kenneth Warren

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim,

I have thought of it on occasion but I know I am an opinionated pain in the butt. ...

I shall accept my spanking and return to my lurking status.

Lakewood, warts and all, I love it here.

Kevin - world

Kevin in the four years I have known you, you are one of the sharpest big hearted people I have met in Lakewood. Like many of us you bleed Lakewood. What I think Ken and I were trying to get across, is the amount of thought that goes behind this story and the paper.

I wish we had filmed more than one meeting, it would be better than the Office. The advisory board rarely agrees on anything, except to meet as little as possible. The entire project is built on openness. It is the civic discourse that matters. Look at this thread. Very serious to hilarious. In the end we must all take it as a discussion nothing more nothing less.

Everything sinks in, though I take much longer than many to grasp the problem and issue. Go back and read through this thread and others. Take them in on the whole. This is some amazing stuff being put down. Including everything you have ever posted.

Let's use Charyn for an example. While we rarely see eye to eye i believe the open discussion helps me, maybe her, and others that are reading it. Maybe not. But again, you get to look into the thought making process, vet the ideas and take the kudos and the lumps.

I was serious and i know Ken was. If you had the time you would add so much to our police beat. As the membership enlarges we are now able to cover news as it happens. A parson with experience, knowledge and background who be very valuable to the city and this project.

As for the blue collar, education. I'm dying, from ninth grade on, I studied Raleigh cigarettes, smoke rings, and pipes made out of apples. I am sure I am the least educated on this board, Even I can't read half of what I write. We need you.


.

[Gary Rice]

Kevin,

Please allow me to add my encouragement to that of Charyn's, Jim's, and Ken's- that you continue to contribute, and in fact, consider writing a column for the paper.

You write very well. Your points are crystal clear, and well taken.

I know that you and I will be particularly sensitive to the public sector mentality, but now that we are both retired, we can express perspectives that can be helpful; both for the public, our paper, and for our peers still working in the professions that we have retired from.

And you and I both know that we ought to keep an eye on these newspaper folks, or one of these days, they might really say the wrong thing! They probably need to be pulled back from the abyss, from time to time :-)

As well, teachers- and those of you on the thin blue line, have stories and experiences that fascinate people- hence all those TV shows like "Boston Public" and "Law and Order".

We need you.

Far from talking about getting spanked, you could, after all, tell all of us that we have a right to remain silent :-)

[Heidi Hilty]

Kevin,
Just to add my two cents worth as the Editor of the LO, I'm begging you to join our illustrious collective as a regular or sporadic contributor. We'd be honored to include your perspective.
Heidi

[David Lay]

I second Heidi's remark.