Where's the Enforcement?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

You and I can do this forever, we both know that.

You site extreme examples that should all be looked at and taken care of.

But in every case it is the parent, not the student that should be taken to task.

While the Beer shirt might offend you, the religious shirt in school offends me. I say so be it. I am offended by people that walk over litter, while others are offended at a city that should spend more picking it up. I say call it a draw, neither has any lasting impact until a big deal is made of it.

Nothing is right for everyone, and with that we have our checks and balances.

Dare I say the school, the city and the student are far better off when the little 13 year-old floozy shows up dressed like a hooker. Then at least the schools knows they might be a problem in the girl's home life and mental health?

.

[dl meckes]

You might want to check on the "Marty" shirts. Marty was the president or vice-president of SADD.


.

Dear Mr. Cryptic-

In attempting to follow this conversation, I have no idea what you are referring to or where I should "check on the "Marty" shirts".

[Jeff Endress]

Jim and Charyn

I want you two to separate......right now. We've gone from a discussion of who should enforce, to whether there should be a dress code.....

Look. The school board imposed a dress code. Whether you like it or not, there it is. The problem is what I first identified when there was a discussion of the terms of the code, that being, merely making rules in entirely ineffective if they are not enforced. The old dress code was sufficient IF IT HAD BEEN ENFORCED. Rather than enforcing what was in place, or determining how to enforce it, what came out was a new set of rules, like that would solve the problem. It won't.

While I sympathize with teachers who feel they are there to teach, they are also there to enforce the rules promulgated by the board. If they are don't to do so, then there is one of two problems:
Either the staff member is unwilling OR the rule is unenforceable.

If the board REALLY wants this enforced (as opposed to the dog and pony show of meaningless gestures at tightening the code) then I suggest the following:
1) a member of the upper administration and/or Board walk through each junior high on successive days and
2) Identify offenders, send them home to change, call parents and advise that a repeat will result in suspension
3) Repeat the excercise in two weeks and
4) Identify offenders, send home to change, call parents and advise that a repeat will result in suspension
5) Identify REPEAT offenders and suspend until a parent conference is held to resolve the parental inability to properly dress the child.

I'm more with Jim on this than Charyn....same class, same experience, same hippies and smoking pit. BUT, if there is to be any meaning in the dress code pronouncement, there must be sure, swift and predictable enforcement. Teachers don't do it (not a part of their contract) and there's no real recourse against a teacher who ignores the directive.....

So, the administration/board wanted it? Let them make it work.

Jeff

[Jennifer Desilets]

I have one word for you: UNIFORMS!

It is ridiculous that any time is spent by teachers, administrators or parents on this issue. Uniforms are a great socio-economic equalizer. Don't bother with the self-expression argument - that is what art, music, and gym classes are for. And, don't bother with the financial burden argument - school uniforms are sold at Target and are much less expensive than the latest fashions, and some parents might even be relieved at not having to rush to Crocker Park every time The Gap decides that jeans should be cut differently. If parents want to let their kids dress inappropriately, let them do it on the weekends!

[Charyn Compeau]

*deleted*

The little note here will say this has been edited 2 times by me. That is incorrect. It was edited and completely overwritten by someone who did not sign their name when they did so making it THREE times it has been edited. Not two.

And now it is four times as I delete my postings from the Observer.

fwiw -

Charyn
April 29, 2007

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

I wont debate the pros and cons of student dress codes with you as we will get nowhere fast.

There's nothing to debate over. The dress code failed at St.Ignatius(or whatever school they experimented it with) a decade or so ago and it will fail here in Lakewood too.

What clothes you wear has nothing to do with how good you do in school. If that'd be the case I'd have a full ride to Princeton next year.

You'd be surprised how many parents at the High School level tell their kids what they can and cannot wear. After all, most of the parents still buy the clothes for them. I know plenty of my friends that have told me that their parents still check on their wardrobe, as they should- since it's part of parenting.

Teachers and Administrators have far more important things to worry about with 2100+ students roaming the school than what they wear. That just adds more to the already long list of what the teachers have to do.

or any child is wearing a shirt with a beer logo on it, or flip-flops that are a hazard to themselves (and possible others) what do you propose should occur?

what should occur is the SAME THING that's been occurring in every school before the new dress code was applied. No drugs, alcohol, or inappropriate images or graphics were EVER allowed in my time in school. You'd either have to change, or turn the shirt inside out if the logo isn't visible from the other side. That's nothing new to me.. that's something that's always been in place and always should be there.

Flip Flops were also always outlawed to my knowledge, not just this past summer when the new dress code was allowed. And at Horace Mann, they put tape down the stairwells and you can only walk on the right side of the stairwell both ways. Safety Town?

Sorry but Ill go with the children on this one - I/they/ we don't want to see exposed genitalia or graphic drug, sex, or alcohol in our schools.

In my 7 years of school here, I can personally say I've never seen a shirt like that. Not in the hallways, classes, lunch, wherever. Why? Because it's always been in the rules that those kinds of shirts are not allowed. And I KNOW they do a good job at enforcing that.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

UNIFORMS?!

Oh please. That's just the thing we need in a PUBLIC school. If they take away the hoodies so we can't run away from the camera, give the security guards tazers and guns so they can stop us if we do.

Hoodies aren't a issue when it comes to drugs or safety. A person can sneak in a knife, gun, or even a shotgun if they wanted to just as long as they know where to put it. If those could fit on a person, then imagine how much drugs are getting into school.

Do you think the kids would really deal drugs in the middle of a crowded hallway where there's cameras everywhere?

They might be potheads, but they're not stupid.

There's a whole wing of the school where there's hardly any security guards, and absolutely no cameras. And to make things worse, no alarms on the doors either.

SO- with all those things going towards the druggies favor, I don't see how hoodies contribute to that list at all.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

What's really sad is you guys are making it sound like nothing is being done.

Students hate school now. First they can't have fun, now they can't be comfortable.

I'm the co-president of the new (and almost ready to start) spirit club that brings students out to the schools events and gets students involved. After barely making it out alive last year, my friend and I decided there was something we have to do- and Dr.Wagner and Mr.Thayer love the idea.

Never do you see girls walking around with short skirts anymore, because the rule is that skirts cant be any shorter than a little bit past your knees.

Never do you see students with bad language on their shirts, shirts that say "drink booze!" or "poke smot!" or anything like that. Why? Because parents dont let their kids go into school like that. At least not at the High School. Because they'd get turned away at the door before they stepped into the school.


As far as i can remember, at HMMS there were two doors you can go into. Front, and Back. At the high school there's only two doors you can enter in, front and back.

Now how can the high school teachers and administration do such a great (and annoying) job at keeping all the dress code breaking stuff out of the school with 2100+ students, and HMMS administrators can't do it with a 8th grade class of 99 kids?

There seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing on that end.

I threw my 3 cents in. We hate the dress code because it does no good. We had far less problems before than we do now, but that's just how things go.

If you tell a kid they can't drink- they'll drink.
If you tell a kid what not to wear, they'll wear it.

That's just the way things are in the world- why go against the grain?

[Lynn Farris]

I really don't care too much about the dress code. My daughter went to LHS and it was pretty flexible back then. (By the way - flip flops are her favorite shoes) . My son went to Trinity and they had uniforms. Both were happy and creative.

What I don't get is why go to the effort and get citizens involved in developing a dress code and then not enforce it? I always thought that when you told children a rule and then when and if they "tested" you and you did nothing, you gave them the message that what the rules were didn't matter.

Now, if we want to change the rules fine. Maybe we shouldn't waste time on dress code - but lets not make a bunch of rules and then not enforce them.

JMHO

[Suzie Dean]

The other day my 11 year old daughter came down dressed for school, I felt her shirt was a little short. I told her to go back upstairs and change it. She wasn't happy. Not because she had to change her shirt but because she had to walk all the way back up stairs to change it. I know the third floor is an awful long walk. But she did so and then off to school we went.

I think the issue at hand should be taken care of at home before they even leave the house. The problem is...Not enough parents taking the time in there child's day to see exactly what they are doing or wearing.

If the shirt is offensive then have them change it inside out. If the skirt is too short make them wear their gym clothes for the day. Then there wouldn't be much time taken away from academics.

But I will also add... my head was shaved and I had blue hair once. It was a faze. And now yes I am raising a family of 5 children. I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, on occasion I do have an adult beverage. I'm not living off of "the system" my children are raised to respect people and themselves. They get good grades and are active in school activities and other things through out the year.

All that and I once had BLUE hair. It is part of growing up. Finding out who you are. My mother didn't limit me. And I think that is why I am the way I am now. She never told me that I wasn't allowed to do something or wear something so there wasn't the need to rebel.

Once again I think the issue at hand is parent involvement.

[Charyn Compeau]

..

[Joan Roberts]

No kids in MS anymore, but I can offer this:

Bill Wagner, as was noted in another thread, is a hands-on, respected, stand-up guy, who can assert authority without being a control freak (future presidential material? LOL)

While he may or may not have agreed with 100 % of the LHS dress code, he bought into it and was able (as much as you can under the circumstances) to get students and staff to buy into it. T

I won't name names, but I do know you don't have that same leadership at the MS level.

Forget the teachers. 10 yr olds could come to school naked and they wouldn't care if it's not in the contract (doesn't mean theyre not good teachers, but it's become a very legalistic world, another thread perhaps). The principal is the person who has to make it work.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Now, if we want to change the rules fine. Maybe we shouldn't waste time on dress code - but lets not make a bunch of rules and then not enforce them.

JMHO

Lynn

Exactly the point I was making. The Board knew they could be no way to equally support the rules. Teachers, as pointed out by Joan, and well known to the board will not act as police in schools, especially on dress codes. So why set yourself up for failure. A search of dress codes will find this same discussion 12 months ago.

Charyn we do agree on this point!!!!!

Jim

[Joan Roberts]

OK, here's the deal with dress codes.

I was stopped for a bite at a turnpike travel plaza last week. There were three girls of what I presumed to be college age (who else would be on the turnpike at 1 p.m. on a Tuesday?) gathered around one of those toy machines (you know, the ones with the claws).

One of the girls was sort of hunched down in front of the machine, and virtually her entire derriere was on view. Not just a little Cosmo hint of posterior cleavage (although we can do without even that), this was full plumber butt-crack.

Now, as a middle aged woman, I found it revolting. As a middle school boy, I might find it something else, perhaps inordinately distracting. I can't imagine who would find it attractive or conducive to learning or necessary for a child's self-expression.

Let me say again. 90% of this kid's ass was exposed. If the child was a 17-year old college freshman and I took a picture of her "outfit", I could legally be arrested for child pornography (think about THAT). And if you dont think that's appropriate for 12 yr olds in history class, then you have yourself at least a little bit of a dress code.

The school board took flak from the parents last year, made it less severe at LHS, and the principal and staff made it work. This year they're putting the same standards in effect at the MS level, where it's far more necessary , IMO. I can only hope the principals there are able to (excuse the expression) pull it off.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

If the shirt is offensive then have them change it inside out. If the skirt is too short make them wear their gym clothes for the day. Then there wouldn't be much time taken away from academics.

This is what they've been doing all along before the dress code. That's what I always saw when there was an issue with the above, and it always worked. I also realized that parents don't take time to be part of their childrens day.

My mom makes me a simple bagel with lettuce, sandwich meat and mayo everyday for lunch. It takes her 5 minutes at the most to make me one in the morning, and I had my friends offering to pay my mom $2 for every bagel she made them because they couldn't get anything like that out of their parents. What does that say about their parents?

She never told me that I wasn't allowed to do something or wear something so there wasn't the need to rebel.

this is exactly what I pointed out in the post before.

Bill Wagner, as was noted in another thread, is a hands-on, respected, stand-up guy, who can assert authority without being a control freak (future presidential material? LOL)

While he may or may not have agreed with 100 % of the LHS dress code, he bought into it and was able (as much as you can under the circumstances) to get students and staff to buy into it.

This guy knows his stuff, knows his students and knows his staff. With my principal from MS- I still say hi to the guy, but i wouldn't sit down and have a conversation with him. Dr.Wagner is the type of teacher/administrator in your life that you would invite to dinner to meet the rest of your family because he's that genuine.

I think Dr.Wagner is much more...human.. than others I've seen, and he approached it in a way where he didn't force you to obey the dress code, but he made sure you learned your lesson if you didn't obey it. It's a psychological thing, kind of like when you tell a kid not to drink and he/she drinks, and pay the concequence of having their face in the toilet the next morning.

Or if you tell a kid not to touch the stove because it's hot, they'll touch it just to make sure that it really is hot. When they get burned, they learn. The hard way, that is.