Full Day Kindergarten: Why or why not in Lakewood?

Phil Florian · Post by **Phil Florian** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:39 pm

For full disclosure, I have a 7 year old heading into 2nd Grade and a 4 month old heading into her 5th month. We did full day kindergarten at St. James before getting our oldest enrolled in Lakewood City Schools last year.

Though diverse in incomes and types of families, I tend to see a larger portion of parents of school age kids as working-class families usually with two incomes and both parents working. Of course this isn't everyone but south of Clifton it is probably more the norm.

My oldest was in child care since she was nearly two thanks to economic needs that sent my wife back to work and wouldn't allow me to stay home instead. By the time she was kindergarten age, it seemed weird for her to go from a 6 or 7 hour day in pre-K to a couple hours of education and then a series of road trips to or from another day care provider. Seemed like her changing hands too much for my own good. So we enrolled her in a private school to meet the need the public school couldn't.

Has any thought gone into full day kindergarten as an option for new students? I know not everyone would want it as kindergarten might be the first time a little one has spent away from home so a full day might be overwhelming but for the rest of us working parents, it is more of a hassle.

On the educational side, I have heard that a full day program done right (and I am not convinced St. James had it right) can have significant positive impact on a child's future academic performance.

So I just wondered if this was out there as a possibility with all the new schools being built and a changing population of students continuing to move to the city.

What are other people's thoughts on this, pro and con?

Thanks for the input!

Phil

Joan Roberts · Post by **Joan Roberts** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:05 pm

I hear about things like full-day kindergarten and year-round schools, and I wonder if we've lost our minds.

Do we really need to take 5-year-olds and start funneling information into them 24/7 for the next 20 years?

Yes, there is evidence that full-day kindergarten may have some benefit over a half day in school and the other half in front of the television, but that seems to me to be government taking over the role of parenting. Please, trust me to raise my kids.

I think if we start confusing hours spent in school with the quality of learning our kids get, we're going to lose a lot more than academic performance.

One mother's opinion.

Mark Crnolatas · Post by **Mark Crnolatas** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:10 pm

Many years ago, with one of my kids, we tried a full day program, which was offered at a private school (church) and it was not a good thing for the personality end of the spectrum. At 5, I believe a full day is just too much, and while a half day is good, the other half, if he/she cannot be attended to by the mom and or dad, then a day-care thing where the child can get some "kids time" in, and enjoy the world playing is a good idea.

With the demands put on the kids in 1st grade now, compared to years ago, I believe the half day program is healthier, mentally for a child. JMO.

Mark

Danielle Masters · Post by **Danielle Masters** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:29 pm

Our fourth child is starting kindergarten next week and I can't imagine sending her to school all day. Kids grow up quick enough, I don't need to push mine out at five. I think it is best for those extra hours to be supplemented with at home learning, for example trips to the grocery store, parks, museums, zoos, etc.

I tend to see a larger portion of parents of school age kids as working-class families usually with two incomes and both parents working. Of course this isn't everyone but south of Clifton it is probably more the norm.

Maybe it is my circle but I know a lot of stay at home moms, I also know a lot of families where moms work part time jobs while the kids are in school or in the evenings or weekends. My children go to Grant so most of us are average families and I don't know anyone personally that thinks there is a need for this in Lakewood. Furthermore I don't think the district could possibly afford it. Full-day kindergarten would mean doubling the amount of kindergarten teachers needed in the district, I really don't see that happening. I am certain there are people that would like to have their children in full-time kindergarten and we have private schools that do offer that option, but for me I think 2-1/2 hours at 5 is plenty.

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:23 am

Okay, admittedly, it's been awhile since my wife and I had the kindergarten experience, and maybe times have changed radically in that decade, but, it seems to me that the rigors of a full day of school would be excessive for a five year old. While I'm aware of studies that indicate there CAN be positives associated with full time kindergarten, I tend to believe that those are unique programs, with special teachers and ciriculums (at significant costs to the taxpayer).

I think that when you sort out the real impetus, what we're seeing here is an effort to foist off upon the public schools the burden of day care that is associated with the half day programs. The acknowledged two wage earner family would benefit from the change to full time kindergarten, and the burden for the costs associated with the half day of day care otherwise paid for by the family passed on to the general population by increased school expenses. The supposed benefits, to the child, of a full day program are really just a red herring, justifying the societal costs.

For those who are forced through job necessity to use day care, there is little change.....the child who would otherwise be at a day care center is now at school. But for those parents that feel that parental time during that half day can be spent on enrichment, and simple bonding, I think that the idea of all day kindergarten represents a costly intrusion into the area of parenting.

Jeff

Joan Roberts · Post by **Joan Roberts** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:37 am

Again, from what I've seen, the research suggests that the benefits of full-day vs half-day kindergarten depend largely on what the child does during the OTHER half of the day.

The child with an attentive, stay-at-home parent, or even a good day-care facility, with some opportunities for socialization with other children, recreation, and just quality time with a parent (or trusted adult) don't seem to benefit as much from a full day of kindergarten.

It's the kid who's plopped in front of the TV or Playstation the other half of the day who benefits.

And sadly, of course, that's determined to large degree by those ever-present socioeconomic factors.

It pains me to give the guy his due, but when it comes to education, John Edwards' point about "Two Americas" is pretty much true.

Either way, every study I've seen (and I'm just a layperson and parent) shows that any advantages tend to flatten out by 2nd or 3rd grade anyway.
How many hours a day you spend in kindergarten has little with whether or not you get in to Harvard.

Ellen Malonis · Post by **Ellen Malonis** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:12 am

Dear Phil,

The district offices are the place to go to get your answers:

Kindergarten Information:

Ohio Law requires that all children complete a formal kindergarten program. Any child who is five years old on or before September 30 of the school year is eligible for kindergarten.

You may contact the Division of Teaching and Learning, Lakewood City Schools, 1470 Warren Road, Lakewood, Ohio 44107 (216) 529-4203 for kindergarten information and materials at any time.

Phil Florian · Post by **Phil Florian** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:23 pm

Sorry for backing out of this for a while. Busy weekend. I think Joan is right...it is clearly "Two Americas." While I would love to be able to stay home or have my wife stay home, that just isn't possible and still keep up house payments, keep food on the table and so on. My baby girl starts full time daycare next week on Monday when our benefits run out post birth and it is killing me but that is the reality. I have to let go of the fact that it isn't just parents who raise kids...it is those that we trust in our lives that can help us.

Which brings me to the discussion about the full day kindergarten. I agree that a badly run full day program is bad for a 5 year old. I think this was the case with my oldest daughter's experience in full day because it required a lot more of her than I would have wanted. Full day in school doesn't necessarily have to mean full day of attention to school tasks. My girls are going to be away from me the entire day regardless of how it looks. As it is now, my second daughter will likely do a half day of kindergarten and will then have to be transported from school to another person to provide care. Not a horrible thing but for me, I would rather have nice full day program that takes into account a 5 year old's needs for play, social time and education in a nice package that happens at one campus. I think some local programs like the Lakewood Hospital Day Care (and we are on that list, to be sure) have full day programs that give the child a variety of experiences that are developmentally balanced.

So I agree that home with a parent for some of the day would be ideal but until something changes in our lives to allow us that (and living in Cleveland in a house half the cost of our Lakewood home is NOT that choice) then we have to deal with the child being away from home. And seeing as it is a "choice" that more parents are having to make, I am just curious to know if Lakewood City Schools could accomodate in some way. Sure, it would double the cost if everyone chose it but in other municipalities that I have read about Full Day is an option, not the rule. There is still half day if a parent wants that.

Phil Florian · Post by **Phil Florian** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Danielle Masters wrote:Maybe it is my circle but I know a lot of stay at home moms, I also know a lot of families where moms work part time jobs while the kids are in school or in the evenings or weekends. My children go to Grant so most of us are average families and I don't know anyone personally that thinks there is a need for this in Lakewood.

I had to bring this back into discussion because I have now gotten more information about the kids and parents in my daughter's school, Hayes. I think the part of town makes a big difference. Here in the South side of town, there are a LOT more two-parent working families or single parents who have to work.

In my daughter's class of I believe around 25 or so (probably a little less) of second graders only one parent is a stay at home mother. The rest are all working full time. This became a problem when they were looking for a "room parent" who helps out with activities, fund raising, etc., as they didn't have a whole bunch of moms or dads who hang out at home during the day. It is definitely "the circle you know" because let's face it, we mostly hang out with people with similar lifestyles as our own. Most of my good friends in Lakewood are two parent families with both parents having jobs. The friends our daughter has made at school, same deal...kids from families where the parents work. So while I don't know the make up of the entire city, I would guess by looking at the makeup of her class at Hayes that it really depends on where you live. I could be wrong but with numbers like my daughter's class (many of whom have siblings older or younger) that this is probably a fair indicator of the other class make up.

I guess I should make myself more clear on what I would love to see in Lakewood. I would love to see a program where a child could get the needed level of Kindergarten education (whatever that is) and be allowed to stay on-campus so they don't have to travel by bus or on foot or by parents who have to get out of work to get them to another place to be. I would love for parents to have the choice of full or half day kindergarten so that parents who are able to be home for their children during the day don't have to send them. Everyone is happy. :-)

Maybe better would be a subsidy from the schools to pay families to allow one parent to be home half the day when kids are of kindergarten age!!

Danielle Masters · Post by **Danielle Masters** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:40 am

I would love for parents to have the choice of full or half day kindergarten so that parents who are able to be home for their children during the day don't have to send them. Everyone is happy.

The only problem I see with that idea is that many parents who don't need or want their children in a full-day program would then worry that their children were missing out. I would still opt for the half day program but I can imagine that some parents might feel that by leaving their children in a half day program that their children would be at a disadvantage. I am sympathetic to the difficulties that families with two working parents and single parents face, but I really hope that Lakewood does not switch to a full-time program.

This topic coming up again is pretty timely in light of the study that came out recently regarding children needing unstructured time. We are pushing our children into school much earlier and in some cases for longer amounts of time, I honestly just don't see the benefits.

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:20 am

So, what are we really talking about here? Per Phil's post, is full time Kindergarten merely a convience for two working parents, paid for by tax dollars, or is it an educational advancement, needed to keep pace with other systems?

We expect far too much from our schools. The mission has gone in scope from simply educating. Schools are overly burdened with taking on societal issues, from morals and discipline to feeding and day care. As I see the issue, there is little to be gained from an educational standpoint, by a full day kindergarten. If the mission is to educate, then what purpose is served?

If the mission is to provide social services for two working parents, then, as a city and society, we will have to accept that the costs of providing a program that is essentially a convenience will be born by all, as opposed to half day child care which is undertaken by the individuals.

So, what's the cost/benefit analysis? And who actually realizes the benefit? Would the children reap an educational benefit, or the parents, a day care benefit......or a mix of the two? I would wager that if there were an optional full day program that was supported by a pay to play fee arrangement that there would be a lot less enthusiasm for what is essentially a program to provide day care at school/taxpayer expense.

Jeff

dl meckes · Post by **dl meckes** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:52 am

Jeff Endress wrote: I would wager that if there were an optional full day program that was supported by a pay to play fee arrangement that there would be a lot less enthusiasm for what is essentially a program to provide day care at school/taxpayer expense.

Jeff

Our Congressman thinks kids should have "free" day care, just like children have "free" schools.

Cradle-to-grave government care!

Oh boy, more taxes!

ryan costa · Post by **ryan costa** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:59 am

Those extra hours would be an excellent time for foreign language Immersion classes. With strong Spanish, Russian, Chinese or other languages, these children will have a heads up for jobs as foremen and supervisors of people doing most of the work once the world finishes flattening out. I mean, they can be a foreman or supervisor if they don't get to be Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or marry into the Mittal family or Walton familes, or in the bureacracies administering the New Social Safety Net.

But like, that is the prime age for learning language, music, and some other stuff. But if they can talk to Europeans they could be more likely to become Socialists or Anarchists or certainly not Bush supporters. And if they develop well enough to justify ending high school around the age of 16, that will take away two prime years of playing sports, dances, marching band, industrial arts, or theatre.

DougHuntingdon · Post by **DougHuntingdon** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 am

re: cradle to grave - they have all kinds of public daycare for pre-kindergarten in Europe, etc. I suspect that will come here eventually. I believe it's already infiltrated Canada, at least in some provinces.

Maybe someday, the parents won't even leave the hospital with the newborn?

Once you graduate from high school, I believe Georgia has a program where you get free in-state tuition with a minimum GPA.

Doug

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:18 pm

Doug

I've no problem with cradle to grave, or publicly provided daycare....probably would be a good idea, especially in a country that sees no reason for a living minimum wage. However, I do have a problem when you clothe that daycare in the guise of allday kindergarten, with the attendant costs to be born by schools that are already stressed.

I can envision even more difficulty in passing levies due to these added costs, and then cutting actual educational programs so there is money to finance what would be essentially daycare. If we want to provide public daycare, fine. But it needs to be placed where it belongs, Healkth and Human Services (or the like), but not as yet another unfunded mandate on the schools.

Jeff