West Shoreway: even crazier than the Euclid Corridor!

[Jim O'Bryan]

"in the box thinking"? OUCH!

Jay

More like, ouch.

Just because we were a suburb of Cleveland doesn't mean that Cleveland has to be the center of anything. The steel mills where Lakewoodites worked in the past is now a WalMart. I see Lakewood as the island in the region and it is a good thing.

One small problem I have noticed is that by the time most studies are done the thoughts of that study are old and antiquated. Lakewood has two choices, and it is in a position to do both.

Joan

Once again we agree Cleveland is like a boat going down, jumping off is not enough, you have to swim away or you get pulled in by the suction.

Regionalists like their lips when Lakewood and Cleveland Heights are mentioned. Two very similar cities that can and should on their own, or join forces outside the regional push.

55,000 ebay sellers! Not bad, possible if the city brings in 5,000 more people. But Lakewood is a hot bed for designers, artists, musicians, web designers, writers and more. None need offices, and we have even sold one scarf on ebay yet. Again this is very in the box thinking on your part.

The internet, black fiber, WiFi offer everything the world needs right at the time the world needs it. Travel expenses, security, high cost of everything is now offset with low net prices and high speed. Many of us in the design field design work her for companies out of state and get the job printed where it is cheapest or most convenient.

While this does not work for the man building malls, or cars, or TVs it does work for an ever growing population of Americans and their spouses.

Not to sound like a broken record, but Lakewood has a ton of things 90% of the rest of the world does not have. If we highlight those things and how they can add to a person's life/business this becomes a slam dunk.

Now let's go to sales online: Lakewood Shopping Experience is offering full ecommerce websites to Lakewood businesses for $20.00 a month after set-up. Earthlink currently offers 25 items on line for $250.00, 50 items for $500 and 200 for $1000, and a percentage of the sales. So that a business looking to relocate could pay for their Lakewood storefront, with the savings on the website. We are also working on a "fulfillment zone" where these businesses can store overstock and get it shipped for them. Because of our time zone and location, a business has till 9:30pm or later to pull an order and ship and it will still be there the next day.

This is huge if anyone ever thought of telling people. One small example.



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[Matthew Charboneau]

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[Joan Roberts]

I am very sorry if it takes you 4 more minutes to get to work in the morning, thereby increasing the chance of coming in contact with the lower class.

I will allow Mr Huntington to explain his own comments.

However I will ask YOU on what factual basis do you believe that the addition of at least 7 intersections with the prerequisite traffic signals, will only add 4 minutes to Lakewood's commute time? Also, if this program will be such a benefit to Cleveland, why are state dollars subsidizing it? Which state programs are currently in the works which will inspire major restauranteurs and arts organiziations to invest on Detroit or Madison Aves?

[DougHuntingdon]

It is not surprising when I read your post to see that another government employee is supporting such a project.

4 minutes? Is this conclusion derived from the new math?

What is ironic is that those who claim to have Cleveland proper's best interests at heart are the ones who are stabbing it with a knife, knowingly or not. If they do this crazy project, I will adjust accordingly by working remotely or by getting a job in Westlake. However, I predict Cleveland will suffer much more...this is just one more nail in its coffin.

I know when I have been outnumbered. I see those favoring big government swarming around this forum. I will keep my comments to myself for a long time so that the vultures have nothing to eat. LOL

Doug

*edit* PS Good post, Joan. I will be leaving the board for awhile in your hands--you'll be the sole voice of constant reason.

[Kenneth Warren]

Ms. Roberts:

When someone with your perspective says "I see this as Big Cleveland Politics and Money screwing Lakewood," I listen carefully.

You are saying that the quick drive to downtown and convenience factors of the bedroom community where the majority works elsewhere is, given the actual, current living conditions of working people in Lakewood, a quality of life under attack by "big Cleveland Politics and Money."

I think you may have an excellent point that may well be represenative of people who work downtown, value their time and see outcomes that diverge from the visions that Mr. O'Bryan and Mr. Foran have articulated.

Some of us that live and work in Lakewood may be less insensitive to appeal that the city has as a bedroom community of convenient location for people that must drive to work sites. I trust this is the point you are making.

I am quite certain, given where Lakewood is on the development cycle of capitalism and build out that "Big Cleveland Politics and Money" will stick it to Lakewood.

The question for me always comes back to class and the economic development and improvement designs that create opportunites for "accumulation by dispossession," as David Harvey would term it.

So this accumulation will hinge, to say the least, on the dispossession of your time?

Am I reading you correctly?

Kenneth Warren

[Matthew Charboneau]

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[Joan Roberts]

Joan,

Asking me to provide the factual basis for saying that the new commute would take 4 extra minutes is silly and moot. I concede: the commute may actually be lengthened to say, 7 or 8 minutes extra. I am very, very sorry for my oversight.

.

I try to avoid terming anyone's questions or comments, "silly and moot.," but since you've given my concern the back of your hand, I will ask you how enjoyable the drive from downtown Cleveland to the Cleveland Clinic is.

That's about the distance you're looking at, and the number of traffic lights, that we'd be looking at.

7-8 minutes? THAT'S silly,. But it sure as hell isn't moot.

I ask again, what benefit does turning this corridor into a haven of luxury townhomes (and don't you DARE call ME a "racist"; it's the low-income folks that will get bounced out of that neighborhood; they're not going to clear the Shoreway to make room for $100,000 condos and $500 apartments) have at all for Lakewood?

Again, I can't believe that we wring our hands about Crocker Park "taking" the precious Beck Center and somehow think THIS is to our benefit. At least my tax dollars aren't funding Bob Stark's trolling.

Now that Cleveland has abated every inch of property to our east and south, Frank Jackson wants everyone to play nice and not steal each others' assets. I contend that this project would certainly steal one of Lakewood's assets. And remarkably, influential Lakewoodites think it's a ducky idea!

And Mr. Warren, common sense says "Yes" When most of your residents say that "easy to get downtown" is a big reason for being here, to suddenly and arbitraily double or treble that time just doesn't pass the smell test.

Where is Mayor George and our council on this one? Maybe we can make sure all those sex offenders move into the new Shoreway neighborhood.

[dl meckes]

Again, I can't believe that we wring our hands about Crocker Park "taking" the precious Beck Center and somehow think THIS is to our benefit. At least my tax dollars aren't funding Bob Stark's trolling.

Joan-

I truly value your voice. I haven't made up my mind one way or the other on this proposal and I know that I used to have more objections to it than I do now.

I'm uninformed, but I don't have to live in that condition. I appreciate the wake-up call. There are more facets to consider than I was seeing.

[Shawn Juris]

The shoreway is great but at that same time, I can see the proposal to make the lake more accessible. There should be some solution to this problem that is derived through compromise. Erasing one of the few stretches of freeway that is well maintained and moves easily doesn't seem logical. If they want accessibility plop a few bridges or tunnels through this stretch.
There needs to be some better use of this area's greatest natural asset. The idea that we occupy such a large amount of prime real estate with a shoreway and an airport is pathetic. I think that this solution is short sighted though.
For what it's worth as well, I think that the area of Cleveland that this concerns is one of the hottest areas around. With the changes that happened in Tremont and Ohio City it doesn't surprise me that the city of Cleveland is catering to this area.

[Tim Carroll]

The other thought that might be looked at is the effect the Proposed Innerbelt project would have on this plan.

I would anticipate that a high percentage of commuters will go the via the Shoreway than having to battle the slow downs caused by Innerbelt construction.

To Jay Foran, I am currently in San Francisco and the Embarcadero is a very pedestrian friendly road, but it as I saw yesterday it can be bumper to bumper on a Sunday.

[Bryan Schwegler]

I haven't made up my mind on how I feel regarding the Shoreway project. I can see benefits to both sides. And just to be forthcoming, I drive it every work day on my way to Mayfield Village.

BUT, to discuss changing it before the completion of the innerbelt project is ludicrous. The Shoreway is one of the only free flowing stretches of highway we have here in town (as someone pointed out). Until they can demonstrate that the new "improved" innerbelt design can move more traffic, more freely they should leave well enough alone.

One of the advantages of living in Cleveland is big city living without big city traffic problems. Getting rid of the shoreway with proper alternatives is just getting rid of one of our benefits.

[DougHuntingdon]

Sorry, I promised I wouldn't post again, so I will try to wrap things up with this post.

For Matthew and others who may be interested, below are two links from * CWRU's * website that show statistics for unemployment. I stand by my comments, made before I even saw these statistics, that this project is punishing THOSE WHO WORK and rewarding those WHO DO NOT WORK. According to these links, The Detroit Shoreway neighborhood had an unemployment rate 3.4 times greater than Lakewood for 2000. The ratio was almost identical for 1990.

http://povertycenter.cwru.edu/doc/profi ... kewood.pdf

http://povertycenter.cwru.edu/doc/profi ... oreway.pdf

I don't think there is any need to reinforce the obvious by researching and comparing prostitution and drug dealing statistics between Detroit Shoreway and Lakewood.

Racism - It is extremely disappointing to see someone quickly resorting to this type of argument so quickly without merit on a forum that I dare say has a lot of intelligent discussion by a diverse group of individuals, even if I do not agree with 90% of the opinions expressed here. Unfounded charges of racism are easy to throw out against someone when you can't come up with a better argument. Often times, such charges are thrown out by those who themselves are actually the real racists, supremacists, or separatists. However, I would never make such a claim against anyone on this board based on my attempt to read between the lines of a few sentences.

Classism - If you are looking to charge someone with classism, perhaps you should focus on those who are renter bashers, those who believe bicycles have no place on the road, or those who think a house worth $250,000 is too good to have an RTA stop in front, instead of charging those who are against boondoggle projects with classism.

Doug

[Dave Kermode]

I tend to be more of the lurking type when viewing the Lakewood Observer, but I decided to hop into the this one and give my two cents on the subject.

I'll start off by saying that I am very much for reconfiguring the Shoreway with intersections that will feed into adjoining neighborhoods. As I see it it will effectively weave a growing (I'll get to that later) neighborhood in with its greatest asset, which is Edgewater Park and Lake Erie. While I can't argue that the Shoreway in its current state does not provide expedient access to Downtown and points east I hardly think that adding a mere 7-8 intersections will be enough to place Lakewood at a disadvantage economically. A good argument in this case would be the Eastern suburbs of Cleveland. These suburbs fought tooth and nail to prevent several limited access freeways from cutting through their neighborhoods, at which they were successful. I don't think that any of us could argue that the result of this action was the demise of suburbs such as Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights. Lakewood has the advantage of having I-90 pass through, making up much of the southern border of the City. This is not the case with either Cleveland Heights or Shaker Heights, both which rely on 35 MPH streets with intersections to access downtown.

Also, using the statistics provided by Doug it was not hard to determine that the Detroit Shoreway neighborhood is growing in a number of critical categories. From 1990 to 2000 there was an increase in the following:
-The number of residents with a High School Diploma
-The number of residents with a College Degree
-The Median household income
-The level of investment in the housing stock
At the same time there was a decrease in the poverty level, the number of low birth weight children, unemployment, and incidents of serious crime. These are all very positive trends that indicate a neighborhood that is growing again. While when compared to Lakewood these numbers may not compare, but neither would Lakewood when compared to an area of greater affluence.

I also see this as an appropriate use of State funds. The way I see it is that state funds are used to widen highways to further expedite jobs and people away from the city core, state funds should be available to a State Route that is being improved for the benefit of the surrounding population that has suffered as a result of these state funded highways in the exurbs.


Dave

[Kenneth Warren]

Ms. Roberts:

I want to yoke "class" to your acutely stated argument that Lakewood is getting screwed by the powers of capital accumulating possessions through abatements and gentrifying the Shoreway. I do agree that the development of the Shoreway and the downtown core means the displacement of urban cores, a trend which must be linked to the influx of the poor into Lakewood and concerns about anti-social behavior.

It seems to me that you are suggesting a misguided design is in our midst. Perhaps this is simply another chapter in the history of urban development and real estate brinksmanship that shafts working class and lower middle class neighborhoods.

Yet Lakewood’s best and brightest somehow are consenting to this shaft.

Your question is why?

How has this consent among Lakewood’s best and brightest been developed?

Is it university education in urban studies and non-profit management?

Is it the PD?

Is it simply class interest?

Is it simply hoping for the best in a dark and depressed time?

What is emerging from your position, at least for me, is a sense of time banditry aimed at Lakewood’s working stiffs. It is precisely this order of dispossession – the raid on your time bank – by capital in the parade of elite interests Mr. Charboneau cites:

“City of Cleveland!!
State of Ohio (as you mentioned)
Individual giving!!
Foundations!!
Grants!!
Corporate Giving!!
Investors!!â€Â￾

Mr. Charboneau’s moralizing about race and class misses the actual fact of class and masks the role of capital and elites in the larger pattern of dispossessions, with the time bank of working stiffs perhaps taking the first hit.

Capital always takes its cut – whether Mr. Stark or the downtown elite. You are right to put us on such a notice.

Thank you for articulating a view that alerts us to the range of interests in Lakewood, which may well diverge from those of the downtown elite. So there is another reading of Lake front development coming in from your post– one suggesting the stage has been set for time banditry and maybe other devaluations of real property.

Thanks again for the provocative insights.

Kenneth Warren

[Joan Roberts]

Thanks Mr. Warren.

There is a narrative (which comes largely from the east) that what's good for Cleveland is good for EVERYBODY.

Well, in the last 25 years, we had a mini office-building boom downtown, Tower City, two new stadiums, an arena, a major airport improvement, the Rock Hall and the Sciiencc Center, the rise and fall of the Flats, a waterfront rail line, an off and on resurgence in neighborhoods like Tremont, another mni boom of new housing downtown or along Detroit Ave.

And through all of it, Lakewood's population and employmen went down and its taxes went up. So at the very best, we can say that Cleveland's success translates not at all to any benefit for Lakewood.

As for the contention that people will merrily accept the "7-8 minute" increase in traffic time, I invite them to spend a rush hour on Lake Avenue, where motorists flock to avoid the 35 mph limit and lights on Clifton. Motorists will avoid stop-and-go traffic at all costs. That;s what makes Lakewood and its Shoreway so attractive.

I am still waiting for someone to explain how $500,000 condos on W. 54th will translate into ANYTHING for Lakewood business. And I'd still like to know how OUR elected officials feel about it.

Talk to any member of Cleveland city government and ask them how they think this will affect Lakewood. Tell me which ones will care, if they can even FIND Lakewood on a map, The atttitude there is "every city for themselves," Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise.

Frank Jackson couldn't care less if he abates every bit of development away from Lakewood. But going up against Brecksville scares the shite out of him. That's why the white flag.

'til then, 'nuff said from this end.