Jonathan Haidt, an associate professor in the social psychology area of the department of psychology at the University of Virginia, offers an interesting perspective on the evolution of moral intuition in human communities.
He writes “Our minds evolved to have five moral “taste budsâ€Ââ€â€emotional sensitivities to patterns in the social world that make us feel approval or disapproval for things such as benevolence, honesty, loyalty, respect, or chastity.â€Â
From these moral “taste buds†emerge “five foundations of human moral intuition.â€Â
1) harm/suffering
2) reciprocity/fairness
3) in-group/out-group
4) hierarchy/duty
5) purity/sanctity
To capture an analogical sense of differences in moral cultures, Haidt uses the billiard table and hive.
He writes:
“If you were to look down on America from a satellite outfitted with a special camera that saw only social relationships, you’d see a nation of billiard balls. People move around at will, pursue their own ends, and expect others to leave them free to do so... But when you compare the satellite image of America with the image you’d get by looking down onto most of the world’s more traditional societies, or onto feudal Europe, or onto the tribal and hunter-gatherer societies in which our minds evolved, you’d see a stark contrast: Most humans throughout most of history have lived in dense webs, sometimes even approaching the density and interdependence of a beehive…
If you are a nation of billiard balls, you want a morality that protects individuals from harm, but otherwise leaves them as free as possible. You want to build only on the first two foundations, which gives you the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice.
But if your society is a hive, you won’t be quite so concerned that every individual is getting his or her fair share; you’d be more concerned about the integrity of the hive itself, and the last three foundations are all about that: being very aware of who your “team†is and treating its members better than others; knowing and respecting the hierarchical divisions of labor that let your hive function efficiently and compete with other hives; and guarding your own personal purityâ€â€denying yourself the carnal and self-indulgent pleasures, and instead striving to live in a pure and holy way, ready to communicate with the God that your hive is oriented around.
If the hive world sounds weird or scary to you, you are probably a political liberal.â€Â
Source:
http://www.science-spirit.org/webexclus ... cle_id=643
What “moral taste buds†are activated in Lakewood’s culture, and to what degrees are these activations evident in what is cared about and what virtues are argued over in the LO Deck?
Are there issues activating hives in Lakewood?
Kenneth Warren
Lakewood's "Moral Taste Buds"
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Kenneth Warren
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ryan costa
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morality
Adam Smith theorized that morality is formed by human judgement.
Too much legaleze and formality prevents people from using judgement. Professional organizations and political parties are as much a government as the one we pay taxes to and vote for. Promotion within them requires suspending a portion of capacity for analytical thought.
the reverse-effectiveness trend is nearly always consistent with the advancing of many professions: lawyers, teachers, local law enforcement, administrators, BAEs, etc all are much more highly "trained" today than before. To escape the outcomes of this, it is attractive to move into as insulated a subdivision as possible. Our freedom isn't an absence of government: it is an abuandance of empty space.
We've replaced the moral society with the regimented society: that is why it is probably necessary to have a drinking age of 21 in this country. Most of the Americans I knew under 21 who drank were idiots.
Too much legaleze and formality prevents people from using judgement. Professional organizations and political parties are as much a government as the one we pay taxes to and vote for. Promotion within them requires suspending a portion of capacity for analytical thought.
the reverse-effectiveness trend is nearly always consistent with the advancing of many professions: lawyers, teachers, local law enforcement, administrators, BAEs, etc all are much more highly "trained" today than before. To escape the outcomes of this, it is attractive to move into as insulated a subdivision as possible. Our freedom isn't an absence of government: it is an abuandance of empty space.
We've replaced the moral society with the regimented society: that is why it is probably necessary to have a drinking age of 21 in this country. Most of the Americans I knew under 21 who drank were idiots.
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Joan Roberts
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Re: Lakewood's "Moral Taste Buds"
Kenneth Warren wrote:Are there issues activating hives in Lakewood?
Kenneth Warren
It depends on which Lakewood you're talking about.
If you're talking to the warm, dry, safe, and well-fed Lakewood that most of us here (myself included) belong to, our "hives" can be raised by Crocker Park, the Beck Center, the Dollar Tree, parking, architecturally-suitable brick, the Hall House, Goths skaters, bicycle paths, citywide WifI, etc.
To others, it might be those familiar hives raised by landlords who won't fix the damn light, the couple who get drunk and duke it out every night downstairs, predatory lenders, the long waits in the LH ER, the "friends" your kid met at school who you're not quite sure about, the "friends" you KNOW you don't approve of, that damn thumping car stereo at 3 am., why that job is moving because $8/hr "isn't competitive", why the ex-BF won't respect the TRO,. +etc. etc.
Lakewood is funny. It's not the Bronx or even Cudell. You don't see it driving down the street necessarily, not even at 2 a.m. The "hives" are covered by layers of cloth and vinyl siding.
It sounds like I'm accusing many of us (and me) on focusing on the bourgeois and trivial concerns of a decadent society.
That's not true, I care about some of these issues, too. Quite passionately, in some cases. So I'm scolding myself more than anyone else.
But if there's any measure of "morality" in my mind, it's the age-old charge to "comfort the afflicted an afflict the comfortable."
I'm not there. Not even 20% there. Just pedaling the bike uphill and trying to get it right.
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Kenneth Warren
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Ms. Roberts:
Thank you for your playful and thoughtful post. You capture a broad sense of Lakewood “hives†in swarming activities and allergic reactions. This sense of “hives†veers, in a rather interesting way, for me at least, from the “thicker, more regulated social world†that Haidt uses to describe “hive.â€Â
Thus the swarming activities and allergic reactions that inform the sense of Lakewood hives might drive someone to seek a “thicker, more regulated world.†It might be in flight to more homogeneous spaces easily “united under flag and God.†Or it might be presented more locally as the breakout of a moral taste bud in the face of perceptions of increased social chaos and an influx of others whose appearance, behavior or culture triggers “in-group/out-group†sensitivities.
Now let us recall Haidt’s framework for the foundations of the “moral taste buds:â€Â
1) harm/suffering
2) reciprocity/fairness
3) in-group/out-group
4) hierarchy/duty
5) purity/sanctity
Your post immediately raises this critical point about “hives†– “It depends on which Lakewood you're talking about." Thusly the “in-group/out-group†comes into play.
How “in-group/out-group†distinctions are made in LO brand-building instigations that dis other places has been a moral issue you have smartly raised in the past.
For the sake of understanding differences raised in past posts culminating in Mr. O’s “ugly Lake trail bender,†I want to suggest that there is a convergence of moral taste buds around 1) harm/suffering and 2) reciprocity/fairness. This is the "billiard table" of "“the standard American/Enlightenment morality" as Haidt suggests.
Hives break out over efforts to instantiate the “in-group/out-group†moral taste bud in LO brand-building. As I recall from your post in the “Roads West†thread: “I've been scratching my head all day…â€Â
The break out of the in-group/out group “moral taste bud†seems to be where heightened emotional sensitivities are coming into play at this particular moment of our engagement in Lakewood’s culture and history.
“Section 8†sensitivities and calls for more effective regulation of human behavior might also be read in this framework.
You capture a sense of social chaos that disrupts any complacencies about "billiard table" here: “the couple who get drunk and duke it out every night downstairs, predatory lenders, the long waits in the LH ER, the "friends" your kid met at school who you're not quite sure about, the "friends" you KNOW you don't approve of, that damn thumping car stereo at 3 am.â€Â
Again the lack of virtue is evident in these chaotic flow states, which would seem to provoke renewed calls for law and order. The outlaw social terrain is loaded with aggression and intoxication, as Mr. Costa suggests.
Here again “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†appears stymied by conditions of overbearing aggression.
Now I want to join Haidt’s take on “moral taste buds†with Spiral Dynamics ® (SD), “a way of looking at different ways people think and then building systems which better match who we are and who we are likely to become, as individuals, organizations, and even societies.â€Â
http://www.spiraldynamics.org/learning/faq.htm
From the perspective of Spiral Dynamics (http://www.spiraldynamics.org/), a “thicker, more regulated world,†something Haidt suggests is the “hive†could be described in overstated and provocative terms as the land of the “Blue Memies.â€Â
Judith Goldberg brings an astrologer’s planetary spin to the SD behavioral and value typology. Thus Goldberg:
“The Republican Party’s right wing (its dominant base) and the current administration’s policies strongly reflect blue meme ideologyâ€â€a decidedly Saturnine worldview. Authoritarianism is blue’s chief feature….Conservative and responsible, blues are the bedrock of society, law abiding citizens with strong traditional family values. They live in highly structured groups led by all-powerful leadersâ€â€rigid paternalistic hierarchies that require conformity among members. The sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the group is an ennobled tenet of blue meme doctrine. Emotional rather than rational, blue’s belief systems are doctrinaire and absolutist with unvarying principals of right and wrong, good and evil. Champions of the status quo, their approach to education emphasizes information retention and skill development while marginalizing critical thinking. Also labeled the “mythic/membership order†by Wilber, blue’s religion is fundamentalist, based on authoritarian beliefs and literal interpretation of scripture. In a blue meme mindset new myths (whether spiritual, social, political, etc.) expounded by accepted authorities will be believed unquestioningly by followers. Membership in the group, assures one a place of special privilege (particularly in the eyes of God). Blues tend to disregard, distrust and disrespect all outsiders. They are fiercely ethnocentric, nationalistic and militaristic. Excessive patriotism, narrow self-interest and contempt for other countries are earmarks of their jingoistic attitudes. The communist and fascist socio-political orders of the last century (where the state replaced all other gods) exploited blue meme loyalties.â€Â
For more: http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0005721.HTM
It seems to me that as cut throat economics and social chaos pressure “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†along with “the age-old charge to "comfort the afflicted an afflict the comfortable" that Ms. Roberts underscores as morality the “mythic/membership order†and “in-group/out-group†will continue to cause hives to break out both in Lakewood and in a world at war.
Kenneth Warren
Thank you for your playful and thoughtful post. You capture a broad sense of Lakewood “hives†in swarming activities and allergic reactions. This sense of “hives†veers, in a rather interesting way, for me at least, from the “thicker, more regulated social world†that Haidt uses to describe “hive.â€Â
Thus the swarming activities and allergic reactions that inform the sense of Lakewood hives might drive someone to seek a “thicker, more regulated world.†It might be in flight to more homogeneous spaces easily “united under flag and God.†Or it might be presented more locally as the breakout of a moral taste bud in the face of perceptions of increased social chaos and an influx of others whose appearance, behavior or culture triggers “in-group/out-group†sensitivities.
Now let us recall Haidt’s framework for the foundations of the “moral taste buds:â€Â
1) harm/suffering
2) reciprocity/fairness
3) in-group/out-group
4) hierarchy/duty
5) purity/sanctity
Your post immediately raises this critical point about “hives†– “It depends on which Lakewood you're talking about." Thusly the “in-group/out-group†comes into play.
How “in-group/out-group†distinctions are made in LO brand-building instigations that dis other places has been a moral issue you have smartly raised in the past.
For the sake of understanding differences raised in past posts culminating in Mr. O’s “ugly Lake trail bender,†I want to suggest that there is a convergence of moral taste buds around 1) harm/suffering and 2) reciprocity/fairness. This is the "billiard table" of "“the standard American/Enlightenment morality" as Haidt suggests.
Hives break out over efforts to instantiate the “in-group/out-group†moral taste bud in LO brand-building. As I recall from your post in the “Roads West†thread: “I've been scratching my head all day…â€Â
The break out of the in-group/out group “moral taste bud†seems to be where heightened emotional sensitivities are coming into play at this particular moment of our engagement in Lakewood’s culture and history.
“Section 8†sensitivities and calls for more effective regulation of human behavior might also be read in this framework.
You capture a sense of social chaos that disrupts any complacencies about "billiard table" here: “the couple who get drunk and duke it out every night downstairs, predatory lenders, the long waits in the LH ER, the "friends" your kid met at school who you're not quite sure about, the "friends" you KNOW you don't approve of, that damn thumping car stereo at 3 am.â€Â
Again the lack of virtue is evident in these chaotic flow states, which would seem to provoke renewed calls for law and order. The outlaw social terrain is loaded with aggression and intoxication, as Mr. Costa suggests.
Here again “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†appears stymied by conditions of overbearing aggression.
Now I want to join Haidt’s take on “moral taste buds†with Spiral Dynamics ® (SD), “a way of looking at different ways people think and then building systems which better match who we are and who we are likely to become, as individuals, organizations, and even societies.â€Â
http://www.spiraldynamics.org/learning/faq.htm
From the perspective of Spiral Dynamics (http://www.spiraldynamics.org/), a “thicker, more regulated world,†something Haidt suggests is the “hive†could be described in overstated and provocative terms as the land of the “Blue Memies.â€Â
Judith Goldberg brings an astrologer’s planetary spin to the SD behavioral and value typology. Thus Goldberg:
“The Republican Party’s right wing (its dominant base) and the current administration’s policies strongly reflect blue meme ideologyâ€â€a decidedly Saturnine worldview. Authoritarianism is blue’s chief feature….Conservative and responsible, blues are the bedrock of society, law abiding citizens with strong traditional family values. They live in highly structured groups led by all-powerful leadersâ€â€rigid paternalistic hierarchies that require conformity among members. The sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the group is an ennobled tenet of blue meme doctrine. Emotional rather than rational, blue’s belief systems are doctrinaire and absolutist with unvarying principals of right and wrong, good and evil. Champions of the status quo, their approach to education emphasizes information retention and skill development while marginalizing critical thinking. Also labeled the “mythic/membership order†by Wilber, blue’s religion is fundamentalist, based on authoritarian beliefs and literal interpretation of scripture. In a blue meme mindset new myths (whether spiritual, social, political, etc.) expounded by accepted authorities will be believed unquestioningly by followers. Membership in the group, assures one a place of special privilege (particularly in the eyes of God). Blues tend to disregard, distrust and disrespect all outsiders. They are fiercely ethnocentric, nationalistic and militaristic. Excessive patriotism, narrow self-interest and contempt for other countries are earmarks of their jingoistic attitudes. The communist and fascist socio-political orders of the last century (where the state replaced all other gods) exploited blue meme loyalties.â€Â
For more: http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0005721.HTM
It seems to me that as cut throat economics and social chaos pressure “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†along with “the age-old charge to "comfort the afflicted an afflict the comfortable" that Ms. Roberts underscores as morality the “mythic/membership order†and “in-group/out-group†will continue to cause hives to break out both in Lakewood and in a world at war.
Kenneth Warren
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Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
A lot to respond to here, but one thing you wrote did really stick out:
The key word is "chaotic."
But it's personal, as opposed to societal.
When you talk to someone whose life is screwed up through poverty, unemployment, substance abuse, domestic violence, bad personal decisions, debt, etc. you'll usually hear the phrase, "I feel like my life is out of control" or "my life is just way too chaotic'
Even a civilized, "amicable" divorce can lend itself to a feeling of things spinning out of control.
That's NOT a call for more "law and order". It's a PERSONAL imperative.
And I guess what I'm saying is that, for people in that condition...which represents a sizeable percentage of Lakewood..."branding" and things like the Beck Center and Crocker Park seem about as personally relevant as the G-8 summit.
Some people are only vaguely aware they actually live in Lakewood, a separate city as opposed to a Cleveland neighborhood. For others, Lakewood was the most inexpensive place to live on the West Side that didn't involve Cleveland schools. Lakewood, again, represents a marriage of convenience. (which goes back to the "good enough for now" comment)
The chaotic lives represent a growing share of our population (and they are indeed MIA from the Observer.) That leaves the city with all kinds of questions, and yes, some of them are moral ones.
Witness the whole Section 8 flap, where the NIMBY voices are in full throat Yet where's the morality of someone on Edgewater lecturing another person on Beach about "tolerance"? The term "limousine liberal" easily comes to mind.
This could all lapse into a pleasant but ineffectual theoretical discussion, but I believe it has some very important and practical implications. As more "chaotic" lives come to the city, how do they impact the rest of you/them/us? What's the community's responsibility to fix the chaos, or at least keep it under control (and I'm talking about far more than police response)? What does that do to the brand?
And what does any of it have to do with Crocker Park?
You capture a sense of social chaos that disrupts any complacencies about "billiard table" here: “the couple who get drunk and duke it out every night downstairs, predatory lenders, the long waits in the LH ER, the "friends" your kid met at school who you're not quite sure about, the "friends" you KNOW you don't approve of, that damn thumping car stereo at 3 am.â€Â
Again the lack of virtue is evident in these chaotic flow states, which would seem to provoke renewed calls for law and order.
The key word is "chaotic."
But it's personal, as opposed to societal.
When you talk to someone whose life is screwed up through poverty, unemployment, substance abuse, domestic violence, bad personal decisions, debt, etc. you'll usually hear the phrase, "I feel like my life is out of control" or "my life is just way too chaotic'
Even a civilized, "amicable" divorce can lend itself to a feeling of things spinning out of control.
That's NOT a call for more "law and order". It's a PERSONAL imperative.
And I guess what I'm saying is that, for people in that condition...which represents a sizeable percentage of Lakewood..."branding" and things like the Beck Center and Crocker Park seem about as personally relevant as the G-8 summit.
Some people are only vaguely aware they actually live in Lakewood, a separate city as opposed to a Cleveland neighborhood. For others, Lakewood was the most inexpensive place to live on the West Side that didn't involve Cleveland schools. Lakewood, again, represents a marriage of convenience. (which goes back to the "good enough for now" comment)
The chaotic lives represent a growing share of our population (and they are indeed MIA from the Observer.) That leaves the city with all kinds of questions, and yes, some of them are moral ones.
Witness the whole Section 8 flap, where the NIMBY voices are in full throat Yet where's the morality of someone on Edgewater lecturing another person on Beach about "tolerance"? The term "limousine liberal" easily comes to mind.
This could all lapse into a pleasant but ineffectual theoretical discussion, but I believe it has some very important and practical implications. As more "chaotic" lives come to the city, how do they impact the rest of you/them/us? What's the community's responsibility to fix the chaos, or at least keep it under control (and I'm talking about far more than police response)? What does that do to the brand?
And what does any of it have to do with Crocker Park?
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Jim O'Bryan
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- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Joan Roberts wrote:Some people are only vaguely aware they actually live in Lakewood, a separate city as opposed to a Cleveland neighborhood. For others, Lakewood was the most inexpensive place to live on the West Side that didn't involve Cleveland schools. Lakewood, again, represents a marriage of convenience. (which goes back to the "good enough for now" comment)
---
Witness the whole Section 8 flap, where the NIMBY voices are in full throat Yet where's the morality of someone on Edgewater lecturing another person on Beach about "tolerance"? The term "limousine liberal" easily comes to mind.
----
And what does any of it have to do with Crocker Park?
Joan
Three quick thoughts.
1) Shouldn't we work harder than to define the brand, then help get information out about it, Lakewood, and all of the programs Lakewood has to help where needed. Lakewood has strong networks and neighborhoods, something you point out is not as full in the burbs. the Family Room, the library, the schools, the LOGFSN, the almost 50% back for building repairs, etc, might slow down the spin in the minds of some people that they can start to focus on problems instead of being out of control.
-----
Section 8 NIMBY, I think everyone was indicating, "Our Fair Share, not NIMBY."
---
It would seem that Crocker Park has declared War on Lakewood, and other suburbs. While they want us to shop there Stark has more than once inserted himself deep into Lakewood life and business. Once to stop/slow the Westend, the other to steal away in the night the Beck Center. Who knows what else?
I thought long and hard about your comments this weekend while working on someone else's boat. In the end, this is Lakewood, and the Lakewood Observer I am not sure how many flowery kind words can expected to be put out for Crocker Park, Westlake, Bay, etc.
Just some random thoughts.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Jeff Endress
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- Location: Lakewood
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Kenneth Warren
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:17 pm
Ms. Roberts:
Thank you for another bright extension of your take on this material.
While you say “it's personal, as opposed to societal,†the chaos flows in my view through both levels – the personal which is situated in the complex of cultural, economic, environmental and societal conditions.
That’s why I brought Haidt’s model to the LO Deck, specifically with your “personal†frame, with difficulties you spot as the chaos terrain shifts, at least for purposes of the discussion of Lakewood, to the societal and the moral taste buds start activating around “in-group/out-group†categories.
I would suggest there may be a flight response for those who prefer “the liberal†or as Haidt says “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†from places of social chaos where “moral taste buds†are breaking out around “in-group/out-group†matters.
So you manage with considerable insight to capture Lakewood’s “moral taste buds†dilemma, i.e., the activation of the allergic reaction to compounding personal chaos into group chaos and then societal chaos, and conversely the control response to the swell of “broken window†chaos- making, which conservatives would say stems from that surplus value that fed the sixties countercultural revolution, kicking out the jams, brothers and sisters on the fifties “Leave it to Beaver†hive.
Thanks again. I value immensely your ability to bring a highly informed and sensitive perspective to the LO Deck.
You raise excellent questions that I cannot answer now (or perhaps ever), because I am out of time right now.
Kenneth Warren
Thank you for another bright extension of your take on this material.
While you say “it's personal, as opposed to societal,†the chaos flows in my view through both levels – the personal which is situated in the complex of cultural, economic, environmental and societal conditions.
That’s why I brought Haidt’s model to the LO Deck, specifically with your “personal†frame, with difficulties you spot as the chaos terrain shifts, at least for purposes of the discussion of Lakewood, to the societal and the moral taste buds start activating around “in-group/out-group†categories.
I would suggest there may be a flight response for those who prefer “the liberal†or as Haidt says “the standard American/Enlightenment morality that focuses on harm/suffering/victimization and on fairness/rights/justice†from places of social chaos where “moral taste buds†are breaking out around “in-group/out-group†matters.
So you manage with considerable insight to capture Lakewood’s “moral taste buds†dilemma, i.e., the activation of the allergic reaction to compounding personal chaos into group chaos and then societal chaos, and conversely the control response to the swell of “broken window†chaos- making, which conservatives would say stems from that surplus value that fed the sixties countercultural revolution, kicking out the jams, brothers and sisters on the fifties “Leave it to Beaver†hive.
Thanks again. I value immensely your ability to bring a highly informed and sensitive perspective to the LO Deck.
You raise excellent questions that I cannot answer now (or perhaps ever), because I am out of time right now.
Kenneth Warren
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Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Three quick thoughts.
1) Shouldn't we work harder than to define the brand, then help get information out about it, Lakewood, and all of the programs Lakewood has to help where needed. Lakewood has strong networks and neighborhoods, something you point out is not as full in the burbs. the Family Room, the library, the schools, the LOGFSN, the almost 50% back for building repairs, etc, might slow down the spin in the minds of some people that they can start to focus on problems instead of being out of control.
-----
Section 8 NIMBY, I think everyone was indicating, "Our Fair Share, not NIMBY."
---
It would seem that Crocker Park has declared War on Lakewood, and other suburbs. While they want us to shop there Stark has more than once inserted himself deep into Lakewood life and business. Once to stop/slow the Westend, the other to steal away in the night the Beck Center. Who knows what else?
I thought long and hard about your comments this weekend while working on someone else's boat. In the end, this is Lakewood, and the Lakewood Observer I am not sure how many flowery kind words can expected to be put out for Crocker Park, Westlake, Bay, etc.
Just some random thoughts.
.
And actually, I agree with all of them.
My point in response to Mr. Warren is that you can't really have a full or satisfying conversation about Lakewood or its future without acknowledging that there are a good many "lives in chaos (or at least some disarray)" out there.
People leave Lakewood not for the shopping at Crocker Park but in at least some cases to avoid living next door to those lives. That's a reality and a problem. Some might say, Lakewood's BIGGEST problem.
You're correct that as a community, Lakewood has a better-than-most support network. That's one of the things that makes me proud to live here.
As for the NIMBY thing, EVERYONE plays that game. Lakewood's no better or worse on that score than a million other places.
And I don't expect anyone to say flowerly things about Westlake or Bay. I understand that's not the point of the endeavor.
To Mr. Endress.
I can't give you a percentage, and I didn't say it's a large one. But I'd bet you 10 bucks that if you knocked on some apartment doors in some areas of Lakewood and asked who the mayor was, at least a few would say "Frank Jackson"
Or "Mike White"
Some folks just don't pay a lot of attention to things like that.
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Jim O'Bryan
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- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Joan
I do believe we are on the same page on this. Not that we have to be. Differences of opinions and conversation is how people learn and teach. I fear not enough has gone on in the past. While most of us remember a grand past of Lakewood neighborhoods hanging together, the current reality would be different I am sure. The Devil Dogs we would jump through hoops for as a child are now nasty dry chocolate things that cannot be swallowed.
There is no doubt that Lakewood has its issues. One of the reason so many of us do not jump in is that we are working on them. At least working on the white paper. Let's shine a little light on the Observer right now.
If you look the advisory board is one of the most energetic groups in Lakewood, on their own. We had talked many times and worked together on various issues together and against each other. Together we knew none of us had all the answers and if we built Jim OB's Utopia 99.9% of Lakewood would head for the flatlands. So how do we address Lakewood's needs in a fun, low key effort, way that respects both opinions and time banks. When we stumble on a possible solution, how is the word gotten out to the masses? This is why the paper stays a-political. This is why our Mission Statements talks about helping Lakewoodites understand Lakewood better than any city ever knew itself.
The Lakewood Observer - Observation Deck was built and designed for many reasons. The top three would be I believe 1) Open honest discussion. 2) Vetting and gathering of ideas 3) Build Community awareness and in that the "brand" emerges.
The hard copy was created to get that snapshot into the hands of as many Lakewoodites as we can.
Right now the Visionary Alignment for Lakewood is working on defining, building, and marketing the Lakewood Brand. As you yourself point out we can not manufacture a "brand" that is what Crocker Park did. It is easy to do that with no history. Lakewood has a rich history we cannot not and should not ignore.
What excites me is that the LO Project is way ahead of what we ever dreamed of. But far short of where we all know it can go. What energizes me is what many outside of Lakewood are seeing in this effort.
.
I do believe we are on the same page on this. Not that we have to be. Differences of opinions and conversation is how people learn and teach. I fear not enough has gone on in the past. While most of us remember a grand past of Lakewood neighborhoods hanging together, the current reality would be different I am sure. The Devil Dogs we would jump through hoops for as a child are now nasty dry chocolate things that cannot be swallowed.
There is no doubt that Lakewood has its issues. One of the reason so many of us do not jump in is that we are working on them. At least working on the white paper. Let's shine a little light on the Observer right now.
If you look the advisory board is one of the most energetic groups in Lakewood, on their own. We had talked many times and worked together on various issues together and against each other. Together we knew none of us had all the answers and if we built Jim OB's Utopia 99.9% of Lakewood would head for the flatlands. So how do we address Lakewood's needs in a fun, low key effort, way that respects both opinions and time banks. When we stumble on a possible solution, how is the word gotten out to the masses? This is why the paper stays a-political. This is why our Mission Statements talks about helping Lakewoodites understand Lakewood better than any city ever knew itself.
The Lakewood Observer - Observation Deck was built and designed for many reasons. The top three would be I believe 1) Open honest discussion. 2) Vetting and gathering of ideas 3) Build Community awareness and in that the "brand" emerges.
The hard copy was created to get that snapshot into the hands of as many Lakewoodites as we can.
Right now the Visionary Alignment for Lakewood is working on defining, building, and marketing the Lakewood Brand. As you yourself point out we can not manufacture a "brand" that is what Crocker Park did. It is easy to do that with no history. Lakewood has a rich history we cannot not and should not ignore.
What excites me is that the LO Project is way ahead of what we ever dreamed of. But far short of where we all know it can go. What energizes me is what many outside of Lakewood are seeing in this effort.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
To Mr. Endress.
I can't give you a percentage, and I didn't say it's a large one. But I'd bet you 10 bucks that if you knocked on some apartment doors in some areas of Lakewood and asked who the mayor was, at least a few would say "Frank Jackson"
Or "Mike White"
Some folks just don't pay a lot of attention to things like that.
And those same people might tell you that the President of the United States is Clinton (or Truman), their Congressman Tom George and their Senator Bob Taft....
And I'll take your bet that they all know their zip code is 44107. Not that this is really an issue.
I agree that we see some flight away from actual or percieved chaos. Some people move because they don't like living next door to "those kind of people", only to find that "those kind of people" are everywhere. The ol' grass is greener viewpoint. I don't think you can ever get away from that mind set, in its entirety.
Jeff
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Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Jeff Endress wrote:. Some people move because they don't like living next door to "those kind of people", only to find that "those kind of people" are everywhere. The ol' grass is greener viewpoint. I don't think you can ever get away from that mind set, in its entirety.
Jeff
True enough.
However, when "those kind of people" represent a big enough chunk of the population, the generality breaks down. When a community like Lakewood has a third of its school kids qualifying for free or reduced lunches, the percentage of single-parent families, the number of DV cases, it's difficult to wave away with "the grass is always greener"
I guess that's what I was trying to get across. Westlake and Bay are far different places from Lakewood, and that phrase connotes a mixed blessing. Which lends the Observer and its board to opportunities to be agents for change (although I would never be so presumptuous as to expect a Website and newsweekly to solve a community's problems).
Another point to remember is that the process of being, becoming, or changing "those kind of people" isn't always a linear one. It's more than possible, I've found, to careen between two worlds, between stability and respectability and chaos and disarray. And back again.
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Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Joan Roberts wrote:Which lends the Observer and its board to opportunities to be agents for change (although I would never be so presumptuous as to expect a Website and newsweekly to solve a community's problems).
Joan
We also are not so presumptuous as to think we can solve all of the community's problems. But some are more easily addressed from outside of city hall. Some are exploring what could end up being a deadend, so open a whole new stream of thought.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
Stephen Calhoun
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:51 pm
- Location: NEO
- Contact:
"Vague Awareness" dovetails with the elaboration of identity and purposefulness and so it inhabits a continuum for which highly activated engagement is evidence of a much more focused awareness.
Surely many live in Lakewood and would report that it is merely the place they happen to live in.
This said, I have elaborated knotty musings in the Thought Puddle.
Lakewood Observer Observation Deck Forum Index -> Civic Intelligence
-> We are Precogs. (Take your machete with you.)
There's much in this thread stuck to the middle of the target. Gracias
Dr.P
Surely many live in Lakewood and would report that it is merely the place they happen to live in.
This said, I have elaborated knotty musings in the Thought Puddle.
Lakewood Observer Observation Deck Forum Index -> Civic Intelligence
-> We are Precogs. (Take your machete with you.)
There's much in this thread stuck to the middle of the target. Gracias
Dr.P