Casinos

[Charyn Varkonyi]

As they would impact our economy in both direct and indirect ways - I believe that this topic is properly situated in this forum - but certainly should be examined outside of Jim's original issue which was petitioner's that were using underhanded techniques to gain signatures. That is a BIG problem that I think would be diluted by any further discussion on Casinos in that thread. Hence my response to Jim's posting of Ken's article here:

To be fair I have not read the Buffalo report yet; however, I have found a few other studies that have examined Casinos over a substantial time period in order to fully evaluate t heir impact on the surrounding communities.

The first is in .pdf and I have no desire to retype it so I will type the highlights of the conclusions and the url for anyone who wishes to examine the data and scientific and statistical methods applied:

From the University of Chicago:
http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/new/pdf/5.pdf

Highlights:
(1) "The Casino Effect is not statistically significant for any of the bankruptcy or crime outcome measures..." [note: these are for crimes against persons and real property - 'white collar' crimes and those that fall in the jurisdiction of the FBI were not evaluated]

(2) "Per capita casino expenditures [...] rises increase 237%..." [note: this is for all casino spending, including restaurant, hotel, gift, etc... this is to say - people in the area spend more at a casino than they would if there were not one present]

(3) "a marked decrease in the percentage of the labor force that is unemployed, -12 % from an average unemployment rate of 6.5%..." [note: this translates into a full percentage point less on the rate - i.e. from 6.5% to 5.5%]

(4) "a marked decrease in the receipt, on a per capita basis, of income-maintenance (welfare) dollars (-13 %)..." [note: for the last two points the overall effect does not lessen the overall per capita income - there is NO effect on overall per capita income]

I urge everyone who is interested in this issue to read the full report. The next section related anecdotal data from residents in the area that slightly contradicts the data presented in this section. For example: Despite the overall decrease in unemployment in areas with Casinos, the respondents in several communities reported that they felt that unemployment was unchanged. Similarly, although there was little change in crime statistically - respondents in many commun ities felt there was a significant increase in crime.

It seems it would be important to understand why the discrepancy in data vs. perception. Is it because there is more coverage of crime with the media sensation of a Casino? Are the crimes reported as related to Casinos actually replacing crimes that would have taken place elsewhere - thus negating the statistical impact?

Another interesting report comes from the US General Accounting Office:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/gg00078.pdf

Their results are similar, but they are more direct in their statement that the sociological effects of gambling are less well studied for situations not including pathological gamblers. In evaluations of social outcomes for pathological gamblers - the markers are expectedly far more negative than the general populace. In other words - people that are addicted to gambling are more likely to get into financial and social trouble just as people who are addicted to alcohol are more likely to get into trouble.

However, neither study concludes that existence of a Casino increases the occurrence of problem gambling. And after talking with a few people that own (or have owned) local service service stations - the Ohio Lottery certainly provides at least one outlet for such addictions - as does the Internet. What the reports DO say is that those that are problem gamblers gamble more at a Casino than they do in the lottery. No data has been evaluated to compare internet amounts to casino amounts.

In any event I am still reviewing various university results (I didnt bother with the hospitality industry or social organizations for obvious reasons).

It is interesting stuff - not nearly the society killer that many would ave you believe; however, still an industry that would require proper planning and evaluation.

FFT -

Peace,
~Charyn

[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

From your .pdf of which never mentions who paid for the study.

"The social effects of gambling on communities are more difficult to
measure than the economic effects, primarily because of limited quality
data on social effects, the complexity of identifying and measuring social
effects, and the difficulty of establishing a cause-effect relationship
between gambling and social problems due to the difficulty of isolating any
one factor that causes social problems. NGISC made no conclusion on
whether or not gambling has increased family problems, crime, or suicide
for the general population. Gambling on Communities"

WWJD?


peace

[Charyn Varkonyi]

Jim:

I have no idea what "WWJD?" means.

And yes,this study was clear in the fact that there were serious detriments to evaluating those statistics. I stated as much - once again accept my apologies for not having the writing skills of a Washington Post Editor. They were also clear in that this was the study of a single multi-faceted community and they were not able to establish a causal relationship to the gaming industry. That is not to say that one doesnt exist - but that there is no obvious and direct link as is insinuated by so many others.

Read on into the bulk of the analysis and you will see that for many social issues they did not draw conclusions because there were increases in some years and decreases in other years... making it impossible to draw any correlation.

As to who paid for it - well... you and I paid for it.

It was from the National Gaming Impact Commission which was commissioned by Congress to evaluate the impact casino gaming has economically and socially.

I am not stating (nor have I ever stated) that Casinos are a free pass to city cash... only that the far right... or the far left approach is not a fair and balanced way to asses the potential benefits and costs to a city.

For what it is worth... I actually had only curiosity when this was brought up - and no real forgone conclusion on whether or not I would vote for alloowing Casino gaming. So I went looking for the most impartial information I could find. As of yet, I could not vote today based on just this evidence - but it is compelling.

One thing is sure, however, I would want to have a voice in the choice.

Peace,
~Charyn

[Charyn Varkonyi]

oops - see below - sorry for the double post!

[Charyn Varkonyi]

Oh and for everyone else -

Jim quotes from the second link - the US GAO study.. There are actually links to two different studies posted to ensure there was a resonable amount of balance. One that is slightly positive towards Casinos (the U of Chicago) and one that is slightly negative (the US GAO).

I quoted from the slightly positive as that one had more quantitative data, whereas the second one was more qualitative data.

Peace,
~charyn

[dl meckes]

I have no idea what "WWJD?" means.

What Would Jimmy Do???

[Bill Koltiska]

Well, guess all the studies and reports keep people in buisness!!

But, stop by a casino, in other states around us. You'll see a majority of cars with license plates from Ohio. Maybe, its time to keep gambling money here. instead of out to other states.. The real looser would be the Ohio lottery, Horse Racing and Bingo... They won't be the only legal game in town..

Some people maybe, addicted to gambling and it is a disease. But ,look at what they bet on on line now.. The number of Hurricanes that will hit the United States??

I think jobs and attracting people to Ohio is more important then all the negative studies, made by people who enjoy their jobs in research.. If you have enough money any research could be done to reflect your opinion..

[ryan costa]

Well, guess all the studies and reports keep people in buisness!!



I think jobs and attracting people to Ohio is more important then all the negative studies, made by people who enjoy their jobs in research.. If you have enough money any research could be done to reflect your opinion..

See my previous post about drugs and prostitution. Maybe a few more Red Lobsters would also help.

Anecdotal experience is more valuable than research. Do owners and proponents and lobbyists for Casinos built in the United States in the last 30 years live adjacently to them?

It is nice to hop in a car and visit the Icons highlighted by new casinos. But Icons are statistically rare and unlikely and uncommon. Icons are not a measure of prosperity.

The purpose of economic activity is to keep people busy producing the things they need, followed by things they want. Advances in productivity generate suplus time and resources for entertainment and service industries to arise. People use cars, appliances, basic clothes, and the like far more than they use Casinos. Our lobbyists should be turning an eye towards these matters. The party of Abraham Lincoln was the party of tariffs and protectionism. Proclaim it ye Republicans.

The current paradigm of outsourcing necessary economic activity to engage in a never ending escalation of debt financed envy fulfillment, energy deficits, rotting cities, and resource wars is an alternative economic system: It may not pay dividends for much longer.

I'd still like to figure out how Donald Trump keeps going through bankruptcy and remains rich.

Gambling. Everyone pulling for a Casino is gambling they will make enough money from it to move away from the casino or behind a suitable array of barriers. Not to escape industrial pollution. To escape the people they expect, and the behavior they expect.

[Jim O'Bryan]

See my previous post about drugs and prostitution. Maybe a few more Red Lobsters would also help.

Ryan


You are good. Everyday I get up pour a cup of joe, read a couple papers and look for the Ryan posts. Drugs, Prositiution, Red Lobster.

It borders on art!


.

[Jeff Endress]

So...exactly what is the tie in between Red Lobster, prostitution and drugs? Are there any studies? Anecdotal evidence. I mean I knew about Appleby's and Bob Evans....but now Red Lobster?

Jeff

[ryan costa]

So...exactly what is the tie in between Red Lobster, prostitution and drugs? Are there any studies? Anecdotal evidence. I mean I knew about Appleby's and Bob Evans....but now Red Lobster?

Jeff

The tourists with higher class pretentions demand a Red Lobster to take their dates to. Tourists with even higher class pretentions are generally not attracted to 2nd string Gambling centers.

It is about attracting tourist dollars and those kind of jobs. One Red Lobster = 15 Starbucks. Prostitution, strippers, drugs, and Red Lobster are way more lucrative than Big Box Casinoes would be. At least until everyone else starts doing it. Casinoes are too mundane now. Everyone tries to emulate Las Vegas and it becomes less advantageous doing so. Cleveland can be the first U.S. city to emulate Vancouver. That will give us the strongest Brand.

Cleveland: It is like Vancouver with Ebonics!

Way sexier than re-industrializing, eh

[Joan Roberts]

Vancouver has casinos, although they tend to be smallish operations targeted primarily for the amusement of the locals.

Mountains, too.

And lots of prositution.

Didn't see a Red Lobster, though.

[ryan costa]

and you were a tourist!

What attracted you to Vancouver? How much money did you spend there? What can they do that Northern Ohio cannot do better than New Jersey and Las Vegas? Say it!

[Jeff Endress]

Didn't see a Red Lobster, though.

No...I think that the Canadians tend more towards Tim Horton's. But I think that breeds its share of prostitution too.....Those poor souls selling themselves for a high octane double espresso and a sugary glazed apple fritter......

Jeff

[Joan Roberts]

and you were a tourist!

What attracted you to Vancouver? How much money did you spend there? What can they do that Northern Ohio cannot do better than New Jersey and Las Vegas? Say it!

Vancouver, more than any other city I've ever visited, combines natural beauty with big-city buzz (I've not been to Seattle, which I understand has a similar combination).

It was not particularly cheap, but not ungodly expensive either (hint: no matter where you go, never eat breakfast in a hotel)

I don't believe Cleveland can ever be Vancouver, any more than I can ever be Angeline Jolie. God has seen to that. Iff Vancouver is Angeline, Cleveland is Frances McDormand.

But, I guess my point was, casinos neither make nor break Vancouver. They are merely part of the landscape.

As for Tim Horton's, maybe the double glazed go over big back east, but i t's strictly croissants on the left coast.