Saturday April 29, Free Presentation on Community Wind Power

[DougHuntingdon]

I have been watching the windmill downtown for a couple days, including this morning when it was rather windy at times. I did not see it moving an inch. For me, this is the final nail in the coffin. I don't see why a dime of public money should be spent on a windmill farm. Maybe someday if the technology evolves enough, private investors will want to start their own windmill farm and sell off the power to the public utilities.

I was thinking to myself--maybe they forgot to plug it in - then I saw this comment from Lynn in this thread. This is CLASSIC!

"In fact at one time they were thinking about powering it so that it had nothing to do with the wind. "

This reminds me of the fake paddlewheel boats. Last time I was in Toronto, there was a boat that had a paddlewheel sitting still ABOVE the water while the boat was moving quickly.

I am not much of an environmentalist, but I think Tim makes a good point. There are a lot of people who do a little recycling and maybe subscribe to the Sierra Club magazine, but many of them still drive their cars around everywhere like crazy. I know a lot of people who ride RTA downtown do so just to avoid paying $195 or whatever a month for parking, plus RTA takes you right to the door, depending on your building.

Doug

[Lynn Farris]

Doug before you "blow" wind energy off, go out to Bowling Green where they are working well.

And I will check on the Wind turbine in front of the science center.

[DougHuntingdon]

Lynn

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the Bowling green windmills. It sounds very expensive but interesting. This is one of the articles I found:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041216/NEWS17/412160452

I also read someone wanted to put up a windmill on Put-In-Bay.

Why can't they put windmills on or near Mount Washington? That should produce enough electricity for several states! Maybe we can put miniature windmills on top of cars or RTA vehicles.

Could you put a windmill on top of the LD Farris building to power your lights?

It seemed like solar energy was all the rage years ago. Has it lost its popularity? I also have not heard much about geothermal lately. There seem to be a lot of alternative energy sources, but few seem practical.

Do you think technological advances will make alternative energy more feasible in the near future?

Doug

[Lynn Farris]

Dr. Fletcher was not in favor of the small windmills. The position is not high enough for good wind. Rep. Skindell asked about this.

I am in favor of all forms of Renewable Energy. My daughter studied bioclimatic energy in Arizona and solar energy. It is great in Arizona - not as good in Ohio. But Solar Energy is still possible in fact:

Cleveland is hosting the National solar conference in 2007. ASES National Solar Conference, July 7-12, 2007, Cleveland. GEO will host this national event by bringing experts, leaders, researchers, educators, and students together to learn about solar & wind power technologies.

And every year they have a solar tour:

Oct. 1
Saturday - Times Vary 3rd Annual Ohio Solar Tour - 5 Regional Tours
Northeast, Northwest, Central, Southwest, Southeast

Actually they are coming out with some new really cool things in solar power - like shingles that look just like your roof that are photovatalic. Not those ugly solar panels. This is more of a home by home idea instead of a municipal power source though as I understand it.

I like geothermal. In fact in Costa Rica again (I really like that country) they have lots of volcanos. They force water into the vocanic tubes and the steam generates power - cool eh? I went to an experimental home last year powered by geothermal. It was more expensive to install - I forget the payback period.

[Mark Timieski]

But Americans simply will not volunteer to conserve. We want big houses on big lots with big kitchens and high ceilings. We want all our modern “conveniencesâ€Â￾. And of course we want our big cars. Really big cars. We want the other guy to conserve. Plus our national “leadersâ€Â￾, how are any of those clods ever gonna “galvanizeâ€Â￾ us to conserve?

Hey! I’m American and I continually volunteer to conserve.

I don’t want the big car. I don’t want the big yard.

I think there are plenty of people that reject the big house, big car propaganda and offer the following as example, the existence of: NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, and (not to forget) Lakewood.

Conservation should and does provide some simple and unexpected benefits. By the very nature of our compact city we are conserving energy.

I submit that if we looked at how much gasoline the city used per capita (say police, fire, garbage, and school bussing) compared to any surrounding city, we would be flabbergasted at how little we use.

Not to stray too far off topic, I did enjoy the presentation but was bummed out that current technology didn’t offer much in the way of private power generation (I can’t strap a windmill to the top of the garage). Is there anyone out there that is willing to give a solar power presentation?

[Tom Bullock]

Renewable/Green Energy will not solve all energy/health/environment problems by itself (no silver bullet exists) but is nevertheless a good idea for Northeast Ohio for four reasons:

1) The price is right--or righter than it ever has been: skyrocketing prices for gasoline, natural gas, and oil make renewable/green energy increasingly worth it from a commercial point of view. Price tag has driven corporate/consumer energy decisions for 100 years, and government policies up to now have kept oil and coal prices artificially low. Before now, it hasn't been *financially* worth it for homeowners and car-drivers to conserve energy (since health/environmental costs were never factored in). All that's changing because of:
a) China's and India's industrial sectors are coming on-line and demanding huge amounts of oil and coal over the next 50/100 years, *permanently* driving up demand and price;
b) Middle East turmoil;
c) Hurricane Katrina & bottlenecks in America's refining capacity.

2) Job growth: Green energy is a high-tech sector which will be growing in the decades ahead. Wind, ethanol, liquified coal, Future Gen power plants with near-zero carbon emissions, even solar: all of these require high-tech engineering and manufacturing work that is difficult to export to China or Mexico. Ohio has lots of engineering and manufacturing know-how so is very competitively positioned to stake a claim to this sector--IF we move now. This requires foresight and forceful action.

3) Improving Health: Cuyahoga County and Ohio air ranks among the dirtiest in the nation, worsening asthma and putting mercury into fish--not good for pregnant mothers (or anybody) to eat.

4) Improving the Environment: Global warming, acid rain, mercury and other carcinogens in water and soil, habitat destruction, oil spills, nuclear waste in need of a safe disposal ground for 10,000 years--all this is eased (not fixed, but eased) by renewable energy.

[Tom Bullock]

A couple further notes:

The windmill wasn't moving because they locked it in place so it wouldn't operate--they weren't ready to go yet. I lived in London for a year and BP built a windmill at the center of town, right across from Parliament; minimal wind spun it quite smoothly. There's plenty of wind on the Lakefront.

Whether a windmill or solar panel is "worth it" for a single-home installation all depends on price. There are several factors:

1) technology (newer tech makes renewable energy cheaper than in the 70s);

2) scale: larger operations are always more efficient due to economies of scale. So single-home/building installations face this disadvantage;

3) cheapness of convential oil/gasoline/natural gas: government policies keep these prices artifically low (i.e. tax breaks for oil companies, subsidies for off-shore drilling, R&D credits, hundreds of billions invested in roads, military protection of oil assets).

4) Keeping health/environmental costs off the balance sheet: right now, we don't require gas/oil/coal users to pay health care bills for asthmatics, birth defects, cancers plus remediate destroyed habitats, resucitate endangered species, or fully clean up their mining operations. If we did, oil/gas/coal's price would go up, and solar/wind would be increasingly "worth it" from a financial point of view.

One successful use of solar: areas without powerlines and water systems (camp grounds, undeveloped nations) use solar to heat their water--a technological, commercial, and environmental success.

Jimmy Carter put solar panels for heated water on the roof of the White House; Ronald Reagan ripped them down.

[Tom Bullock]

FYI, the Ingenuity Festival is potentially interested in sponsoring a design contest for off-shore windmills that would be both art and technology--icons of how Cleveland has left behind its burning river past and launched into the new millenium of innovative, green, high-technology solutions.

Stay tuned!