Surveying residents who leave

[Jeff Endress]

Joan Roberts stated, on another thread

As for me leaving the city, yes, I very well may. Wouldn't you like to know WHY? Is it worth finding out why people like me leave, and is it worth an effort to get them to stay? Or is Lakewood's attitude that we should wave at folks as their moving vans pull out?

I'll bite. Why?

Most employers do an exit interview.....Why are employees choosing to leave and how can the company utilize that information in the future. Is it relevant to overall strategies, or merely a series of isolated event?

Why not the same thing for residents that choose to leave. Why? Is it taxes, government responsiveness, service, schools or housing options? Looking for greener pastures?

Wouldn't it make sense to ask "Why" and make use of that information?

And since Joan volunteered I'll bite. Why would you move Joan. Is it simply that you've finally had enough of Jim?

Jeff "here for the duration" Endress

[Kenneth Warren]

Ms. Roberts:

I am very interested in knowing about how you see yourself and Lakewood. I thoroughly enjoy the sensibility that streams through your posts. Your perceptions about Lakewood are acute and critically aware in ways that teach me quite a bit about our city. From your takes, I have developed a positive and existential sense: "Lakewood: Good Enough For Now."

At the same time you present a capacity for critical reflection on the Lakewood Kool Aid, for reality testing the LO’s dreamy reach for utopia. Like others, I have found your posts absolutely critical to the balance of civic personalities streaming through the LO deck. I like your sense of sense humor, your grasp of differences between people and places. You definitely have a sense of Lakewood, the advantages and disadvantages, in comparison with other places. So do tell.

What appeals and what repels in Lakewood’s current flow state?

What drives you toward or away from Lakewood now and in the near term?

What are the differentiators in your Lakewood experience not easily replicable elsewhere, if any?

What are the deal makers that would retain you?

What are the deal breakers that would drive you away?

Amenities, costs, crime, economic opportunity, environmental qualities, lack of diversity, social dysfunction, weather, people, or simply the need to turn a page in the book of your life?

Kenneth Warren

[Danielle Masters]

My family has left Lakewood twice but yet we came back both times. Our reasons for leaving were economic ones. My husband will also say we left due to the weather and him wanting a bit more space between himself and the neighbors. But ultimately what brought us back was the livability of Lakewood, good schools, low crime, and good people.

[Joan Roberts]

Of course, I echo Mrs. Masters. Economic issues are the main drivers. Right now, my work is centered in western Cuyahoga and Lorain counties, so Lakewood is a good fit from that standpoint. Should my work shift, I would probably shift with it.

And of course, there is the possibility that, without children to consider, I may leave Ohio entirely for greener economic pastures. Plus, I don't know where my kids will settle post-college (Them: Florida. Me: Alaska...LOL!)- Those issues are things beyond anyone's control in Lakewood.

Lakewood is a good fit for me in a lot of ways actually. However, at some point, I may decide that I want to move to an empty nester's home. I envision something small but not an apartment. I don't want an improvement project, don't want to live out my years with a Home Depot charge card in one hand and Angie's List in the other. I've been there, ya gotta trust me.
Twice in a lifetime is enough.

I want a flower bed, but I don;t want to cut grass. I want a nice kitchen that's already there. I don't want to have to use 1,000 power strips to plug in my stuff. In short, I want something modern, or at least updated to modern standards. But I want it already done.

Dealmakers? Can't think of any incentives the city could offer me. DealBREAKERS? A significant increase in crime. Out-of-control taxes.

Culture? Yeah, yeah. I don't mind driving to the East Side. Retail? Nice, but not a necessity. Restaurants/bars/music? Sure, would be nice. But they're not the drivers. Proximity to work, safety, and above all, appropriate housing within my budget will, in the end, drive my decision whether to stay or look elsewhere.

PS: An Applebee's would be great, too (JUST KIDDING!!!!)

Those are my principles. If you don't like them, as Groucho said, I have others.

[Kenneth Warren]

I too moved here from the east coast for economic and social reasons - a job in a place with affordable housing, decent public schools, a relatively safe environment for my kids to explore and grow.

Lakewood delivered and continues to do so.

Crime and safety are drivers for me as well.

The economy and population are depressed, which presents challenges and drives children away for jobs.

So I can understand proximity to kids. But kids may move around, and we may not be able to keep up. Lakewood is not a bad launch pad for excurions to FLA, TX, NC, CHI. NY. A trip to the airport is easy enough, esp. in comparison to other cities.

My kids have graduated from Lakewood Schools. One moved back Lakewood after spells in CA, TX and Cleve.

Speaking of crime, last night he went on a cultural excursion to Tremont.

Car thieves in Tremont attempted to steal his car, hacking the steering column to make it inoperable. Police response was non-existent. He waited three hours until 5:50 a.m. Dispatch information was incorrect, telling him not to worry about his car being impounded. He went back this morning, and it was. I can’t imagine Lakewood deteriorating to such a level. God help us it if it does.

Another son moved back home after graduating Kent. He is thinking about a Lakewood apartment or whether a cheaper flop in Cleveland will help him accumulate cash. I hope his brother’s experience tells him something about the downsides living in Cleveland. I am sure people in Westlake could say similar things about Lakewood.

Crime, police performance and safety are absolutely the keys to Lakewood’s success.

Every so often I travel to east coast – NY, Philly, MA. While there is employment opportunity, the cost of housing is absurdly high, especially in comparison to Lakewood. There is a property tax revolt in many New Jersey suburbs over the cost of public school budgets. The relation of high property values to high property taxes is clear. Noses are bleeding.

I just returned from Gloucester, MA, an old fishing town now without much fishing, with artists, gentrifying working class neighborhoods, with much wooden housing stock insanely priced, with doubles turning into condos, with a slightly more rugged edge than tonier Cape Anne neighbors, streets in worse shape than those in Lakewood, with no money for schools or streets.

As much I love Gloucester, the ocean, the New England intellectual tradition, access to Cambridge, each time I return I find myself comparing life there to Lakewood. Each time I return I conclude Lakewood is still a better fit for me.

My brother lives in Philly, has lived in Mexico City, too, has always been a city guy, only now he has a kid, and his priorities are shifting. He says it’s third world living – nothing works. His property taxes are relatively low. There is only one public school that is functional. If he can’t get his kid into that one, they will head for some suburb.

This is a common enough story, which points out the need for a decent school system, sensibly funded, something Ms. Roberts has pointed out in another thread.

Saying all that, it seems are we that agree on the Lakewood baseline – functional city services, provision of decent schools, affordable housing. Our struggle to convince ourselves to pay the taxes for these qualities of life in an inner ring city with diverse economic segments builds a civic capacity and sense of community that I continue to find compelling, especially when I look around in other places.

My point is to look hard when you consider making a move. There are many things that irritate us in our daily living. These irritations may actually compound at more substantial rates in other places, where we may not enjoy the same company as we are enjoying here.

Kenneth Warren

[Jeff Endress]

What you need to realize is that the roots for some of us run very deep. Lakewood has a unique position of retaining many residents over the long haul. Memories of going to the "Shanty" with my Father on a Saturday morning....going to a school where the principal knew my grandparents...having an office where my grandfather met with clients in the (then) kitchen while my 6 year old father enjoyed milk and cookies with the spouse in the (then) parlor.

Some 20 years ago, we undertook an fairly exhaustive study for a move. New housing to the west and south...the costs of renovating our current home. All the due diligence required before taking a substantial and significant change. At a time that we could have moved on, to newer housing with attached garages and modern amenities, we stayed. We invested in our home and community, Added the space that we needed. Why?!

With the exception of the attached garage, we could remake our home with modern baths, a gourmet kitchen and all the amenities offered elsewhere. Which we did. (although we still lack central AC...but I feel that the the steam heat in the winter is an acceptable offset).

What we could not buy elsewhere, notwithstanding an attached garage, and a move-in new kitchen with granite counters, was the feel of a hometown, with schools that my kids walked to, a library where you could meet neighbors and friends and an atmosphere of community.

You can re-plumb, rewire and redecorate. You can remake your home into whatever you want. It is far more difficult to remake a block, a neighborhood or a city into something that feels like home.

Jeff

[Joan Roberts]

What you need to realize is that the roots for some of us run very deep. Lakewood has a unique position of retaining many residents over the long haul. Memories of going to the "Shanty" with my Father on a Saturday morning....going to a school where the principal knew my grandparents...having an office where my grandfather met with clients in the (then) kitchen while my 6 year old father enjoyed milk and cookies with the spouse in the (then) parlor.


It is far more difficult to remake a block, a neighborhood or a city into something that feels like home.

Jeff

I have no small amount of envy of those for whom life has afforded the chance for such continuity.

The house of my childhood in Cleveland is long gone, the neighborhood I would have played with my grandfather in is unrecognizable from what it must have been in 1960.

My ex had it worse (or better, depending on your perspective). He moved from state to state as a child.

For some of us, the roots may be geographic. Unfortunately for me, that bus left the station years ago.

My parents live in another suburb in the Cleveland area, where we moved when I was in middle school. In that sense, returning to my "roots" would mean leaving Lakewood.

Leaving the Cleveland area would indeed be "leaving home." Leaving Lakewood would just be "moving." That may sound shallow and callous, and in no way do I mean it as disrespect to those for whom Lakewood has been indeed their lifelong home. It's just the way it is for me. Others, too.

One other thought. I happened to be in the much-maligned Avon Lake yesterday, visiting a friend who lives in a typical AL development of 10-15 year old homes. Not my cup of tea, but she has kids and likes the schools and the space. Her dream, post-kids, is a downtown loft. At least she SAYS it is. We'll see.

Of course, the day was gorgeous. Kids were playing up and down the sidewalks on the cul de sac. Neighbors were out on their treelawns shooting the breeze. I saw one man trying to help with another's car. In every sense, I tot I taw a communitee (Tweety voice optional)

I read an article in the Washington Post sometime back explaining that often, newer suburbs can be friendlier, since EVERYONE is new and there's no established "this is MY place" hierarchy. Everyone is on the same social footing. Mr. Warren, I know you have a keen interest and eye for these types of social phenomena. Care to comment?

[Joseph Milan]

Wouldn't it be just as useful (if not more so) to survey people who are thinking of leaving? Start by targeting people whose homes are already on the market. To find others who are thinking of leaving but have yet to make any decision would be harder to do, but just as useful.

Joe

[Lynn Farris]

Joe, I think that is an excellent idea.

When I worked in admissions at CWRU, we always surveyed why students chose to come and why they didn't. Told us quite a bit about who to target in the future for admissions. Similarily the city could figure out the demographics of who wants to leave and more importantly who is buying the homes in Lakewood.

I participated in Voices and Choices which is a big NE Ohio survey looking at a variety of issues. But they did ask many questions like this. Interestingly enough, it sounded to me in the preliminary discussions that people were leaving often to find jobs.

[Joseph Milan]

Thanks Lynn,

A there are a couple other things that could be considered.
Go survey people who purchase homes is surrounding communities and ask them why they chose them over us.
Another idea, which would be difficult to apply due to the nature of the mover is to try to survey renters who move out of Lakewood to other places. Their thoughts on our town are just as important.

Joe

[Jim O'Bryan]

Joe


Great idea. Is there anyway we can talk you into working on this? I think we do the same for businesses.

I have been working on a story along these lines but have never spoken to anyone. I have just taken a couple major reasons and worked them out. The one red herring we now know is taxes. There might be a bunch of reasons but tazes is not a real one. Cost of living maybe, but that is size of house, heating etc. To sell a house in Lakewood and get another one of the same style and size in another city, will never see the owner recoup the cost of moving in reduced taxes.

I know we could get some perople to help on this.


.

[Joseph Milan]

Great idea. Is there anyway we can talk you into working on this? I think we do the same for businesses.

Jim,

I'm really just thowing some ideas out off the top of my head. Is this a project that the Observer is working on or are other organizations like Lakewood Alive in on this? If I can sqeeze it into my calander, I'd be happy to help.

Joe

[Kate McCarthy]

Tom Biers at Cleveland State has been conducting home buyer/seller surveys for a number of years in this region. I'm not sure if he's ever targeted the city of Lakewood in any of his surveys.

This whole thread has struck a chord with me because despite the fact that I've lived in Lakewood for 23 years (shuffling from the Hilliard triangle, to Lakewood Hts., to Birdtown, to Clifton, to Andrews, to Edwards) I still feel like a newbie with many folks. I think Lakewood needs to survey the newbies (who are often renters and somewhat difficult to find) and find out why they choose to live in Lakewood and what would compel them to stay. If we wait until the are leaving, it's probably too late.

[Joseph Milan]

One could even take this a step further and survey people who are happy here in the first place and don't want to leave. It's all a matter of who the marketing is aimed at and what its goal are: keeping people here, attracting new people, attracting certain age groups, etc. Because this is a general discussion, these goals haven't been clearly identified yet.
Joe

[Kenneth Warren]

For years people have been talking about marketing Lakewood.

I propose as an experiment that a "Lakewood Marketing Consortium" with Lakewood public and private interests, including the Lakewood Observer, Lakewood Alive, Lakewood Community Progress Inc., Lakewood Chamber of Commerce, Rockport, Rosewood, City, Schools, Library, pony up and contract on a hourly/monthly basis with a marketing professional. Say eight hours per month at $40 or $50 per hour. Let's see what an outstanding marketing professional can deliver.

This seems a more reasonable, flexible and less expensive approach than expecting City Hall to hire one in this difficult period.


Kenneth Warren