I continue to hear grumbling from local business owners on the overwhelming amount of annoyances from the City of Lakewood. Some due to signage, some due to inspections, all due to permits/fees/etc. that need to cross palms and none of it is done in a friendly manner or in such a way as to encourage more business in the city. We have more and more vacant store fronts and, as noted in other threads, we as a city are prime living grounds when gas prices become so high it would it be ridiculous to live anywhere where you couldn't walk to a local store or eatery.
Yet everything I hear about the City of Lakewood is that it makes it unreasonably difficult to open a business here. Shouldn't they be bending over backwards to make business opportunities easier? I know threads of this sort have happened on here before, often as a side-topic in other conversations (such as around schools, signage, Rockport, etc.) but I wanted to put this out boldly and hear what folks are thinking about this and what the City is doing to not only support the current small business owners but also making an environment to invite more. Am I just hearing the bad stories? For every annoyance that that happens are we finding 30 awesome stories of business success in this city? Am I not seeing the forest through the trees and actually there are more open-for-business storefronts on Madison (in particular) than I actually am seeing?
What's up with this? What is the vision? What can we look forward to this year and the next?
Is the City of Lakewood hostile to small business owners?
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
-
Phil Florian
- Posts: 538
- Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:24 pm
-
Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Phil
I think a large part of what you are hearing isn't so much that the city is unfriendly to business, per se, but rather that necessary inspections and enforcement is a pain, and the city is the party stuck doing it.....sort of like going to the dentist, no matter how swell the guy is, who looks forward to a root canal? So, if weren't the Lakewood Health Dept inspecting the restaurant, then it would be the County.
Same probably holds true for the signage issue.....as a business owner, I want to hire a bunch of day-workers to parade around with huge 3X5 dayglo signs. If the city says "NO"..then I'm gonna scream that they're anti-business, when in fact the city is only enforcing an ordinance designed to keep up the overall appearance of the city.
On the other hand, if we're talking about availability of grant money to renovate older storefronts (which is about all we have) for ADA access or updating retail rentals to meet codes, then there's a lot that the city can do to see that owners (and lessees) are aware of programs available. Certainly, with funding, the city could expand commercial fix-up programs which would help attract business.
But, a huge part of the problem are commercial owners who milk the properties, but fail to update them. A small start up isn't going to dump 10K into a rental storefront. So, do we want to roll back ordinances, take a more hands off approach and see what develops or do we expect the city to enforce the ordinances on its books? Like the speeder who gets caught, you're gonna blame the cops, but in point of fact, its the driver's fault for breaking the law. Similar situation here, if there's a problem opening a business in a rental space, isn't that really the fault of the landlord that owns that space and not the inspector who merely points out the violations?
Jeff
I think a large part of what you are hearing isn't so much that the city is unfriendly to business, per se, but rather that necessary inspections and enforcement is a pain, and the city is the party stuck doing it.....sort of like going to the dentist, no matter how swell the guy is, who looks forward to a root canal? So, if weren't the Lakewood Health Dept inspecting the restaurant, then it would be the County.
Same probably holds true for the signage issue.....as a business owner, I want to hire a bunch of day-workers to parade around with huge 3X5 dayglo signs. If the city says "NO"..then I'm gonna scream that they're anti-business, when in fact the city is only enforcing an ordinance designed to keep up the overall appearance of the city.
On the other hand, if we're talking about availability of grant money to renovate older storefronts (which is about all we have) for ADA access or updating retail rentals to meet codes, then there's a lot that the city can do to see that owners (and lessees) are aware of programs available. Certainly, with funding, the city could expand commercial fix-up programs which would help attract business.
But, a huge part of the problem are commercial owners who milk the properties, but fail to update them. A small start up isn't going to dump 10K into a rental storefront. So, do we want to roll back ordinances, take a more hands off approach and see what develops or do we expect the city to enforce the ordinances on its books? Like the speeder who gets caught, you're gonna blame the cops, but in point of fact, its the driver's fault for breaking the law. Similar situation here, if there's a problem opening a business in a rental space, isn't that really the fault of the landlord that owns that space and not the inspector who merely points out the violations?
Jeff
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
I think we started this before.
You're right about the "root canal" aspect of inspections. Still, wouldn't it be to Lakewood's benefit to have SOMEONE at City Hall look a new (and perhaps scared s---l--s) entrepreneur, shake his hand, buy him a coffee (or a good stiff belt to calm his nerves), and say>
"Thanks for investing in Lakewood. Now, we have some rules and regs you have to follow, so let's talk about them NOW, so you're not surprised the day before you open. Here's my cell phone and my email. Or call City Hall and ask for Joan. And, did I say thanks for investing in Lakewood?"
That I know is NOT being done. And like I said in the original discussion, if it's going to cost $40,000 a year to have somebody do that...FIND THE MONEY. It's worth it!
You're right about the "root canal" aspect of inspections. Still, wouldn't it be to Lakewood's benefit to have SOMEONE at City Hall look a new (and perhaps scared s---l--s) entrepreneur, shake his hand, buy him a coffee (or a good stiff belt to calm his nerves), and say>
"Thanks for investing in Lakewood. Now, we have some rules and regs you have to follow, so let's talk about them NOW, so you're not surprised the day before you open. Here's my cell phone and my email. Or call City Hall and ask for Joan. And, did I say thanks for investing in Lakewood?"
That I know is NOT being done. And like I said in the original discussion, if it's going to cost $40,000 a year to have somebody do that...FIND THE MONEY. It's worth it!
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Joan
I think a lot of this could be done with a little tri-fold brochure. A nice little welcoming paragraph. A check list of things to do. Building inspector, planning department, sign laws, etc. On the back have a list of ALL numbers needed from City Hall, Departments, Banks, Chamber, Council, Law Department, etc.
I know you are into big government, but!
Family Room is looking for money to open another one on the east side of town. Put the $40,000 into that.
I think a lot of this could be done with a little tri-fold brochure. A nice little welcoming paragraph. A check list of things to do. Building inspector, planning department, sign laws, etc. On the back have a list of ALL numbers needed from City Hall, Departments, Banks, Chamber, Council, Law Department, etc.
I know you are into big government, but!
Family Room is looking for money to open another one on the east side of town. Put the $40,000 into that.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
-
Ivor Karabatkovic
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:45 am
- Contact:
Joan you gotta remember who you're talking to, its Jim OB.. the man that prints every little piece of paper here in Lakewood 
i know they're doing something like that for new families that move to Lakewood and are looking for info of schools and stuff, I designed the cover for it. But the brochure is not a bad idea.
$40,000 for one person to answer the questions or $200 to print off thousands of brochures that will do the same thing. And if owners still have any questions they can reffer to the numbers on the back, and you can answer their questions
good thinking O'Bryan!
i know they're doing something like that for new families that move to Lakewood and are looking for info of schools and stuff, I designed the cover for it. But the brochure is not a bad idea.
$40,000 for one person to answer the questions or $200 to print off thousands of brochures that will do the same thing. And if owners still have any questions they can reffer to the numbers on the back, and you can answer their questions
good thinking O'Bryan!
-
Lynn Farris
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:24 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
- Contact:
We were in business in Lakewood for over 10 years when we bought our building. Don had told me I could only consider Lakewood as a place to locate our business as he strongly believed that we should support the city in which we lived. AFter three years of searching, we finally decided to buy. The building transfered into our hands at about 4:00 on a Friday night. Monday morning before I got to work at 9:00 I was cited by the city and given 30 days to do a number of things, which were out of order with our renovation plans. There I was sitting with my boxes still packed, my phones and computers not connected and I had a laundry list of chores from the city, which they had apparently never mentioned to the previous owner. I had supported Mayor Cain in her election bid and listened to her talk about making Lakewood Business friendly and yes, I was angry.
As you can imagine I stormed down to city hall to complain. I shared that my first day after making this huge investment, (at least for us)I thought the city could say thank you, welcome to the city, lets her what you have planned to do with the building. If I wasn't responsive, then two weeks later you could cite me. I shared with them our plans, hired the head of the architectural review committee as my architect to keep the city at bay, while I renovated. Mayor Cain explained that it was all a mistake and she asked the building department to give us adequate time to put our plans into place.
I have heard several similar horror stories from other business owners, many of whom fared less well than we did. And I must say that the bank was happy that we had purchased in Rocky River as it was more business friendly, when I shared it was Lakewood, they were concerned about the building department.
That being said, my experience with the architectural review committee was very positive, but of course, I had hired the head of this group and he knew what they were looking for in a renovation. My experience with the building department was very positive as well. They were helpful and professzional.
Some of the times, I see people struggle get frustrated and give up. I just wish someone instead of rejecting their plans would sit down and help them understand what they need to do to achieve their goals and keep the city happy.
Jeff, I do want the city to enforce the building laws and keep our city beautiful and safe, but I think sometimes you can get people cooperating better when you work with them. I know that Mr. Flynn is good at this and I believe that is one of the reasons Mayor George has him in this position.
Jim, I love your idea. It is simple easy and it works. The city has a great web site. I use it all the time. They could use it to promote Lakewood buisnesses and help them with their business needs too.
One last thing. I donn't think Lakewood publically supported organizations e.g., City, Schools, Library etc. should have to buy what Lakewood sells, but I do think Lakewood businesses should get the opportunity to bid on them. I think all of us can agree that we would rather with all things being equal see the money stay in Lakewood than go to another city or state.
As you can imagine I stormed down to city hall to complain. I shared that my first day after making this huge investment, (at least for us)I thought the city could say thank you, welcome to the city, lets her what you have planned to do with the building. If I wasn't responsive, then two weeks later you could cite me. I shared with them our plans, hired the head of the architectural review committee as my architect to keep the city at bay, while I renovated. Mayor Cain explained that it was all a mistake and she asked the building department to give us adequate time to put our plans into place.
I have heard several similar horror stories from other business owners, many of whom fared less well than we did. And I must say that the bank was happy that we had purchased in Rocky River as it was more business friendly, when I shared it was Lakewood, they were concerned about the building department.
That being said, my experience with the architectural review committee was very positive, but of course, I had hired the head of this group and he knew what they were looking for in a renovation. My experience with the building department was very positive as well. They were helpful and professzional.
Some of the times, I see people struggle get frustrated and give up. I just wish someone instead of rejecting their plans would sit down and help them understand what they need to do to achieve their goals and keep the city happy.
Jeff, I do want the city to enforce the building laws and keep our city beautiful and safe, but I think sometimes you can get people cooperating better when you work with them. I know that Mr. Flynn is good at this and I believe that is one of the reasons Mayor George has him in this position.
Jim, I love your idea. It is simple easy and it works. The city has a great web site. I use it all the time. They could use it to promote Lakewood buisnesses and help them with their business needs too.
One last thing. I donn't think Lakewood publically supported organizations e.g., City, Schools, Library etc. should have to buy what Lakewood sells, but I do think Lakewood businesses should get the opportunity to bid on them. I think all of us can agree that we would rather with all things being equal see the money stay in Lakewood than go to another city or state.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Ivor
Steve Davis prints every piece of paper in Lakewood. the single exception would be the Observer. But if he had a web press he would have that job as well. I believe that Vedda Litho does much of the printing for the city, but I could be wrong. If Vedda had a web press he would also have the Observer print job.
Joan/Lynn
We all know horror stories, but many of them are based in Moe's experience. Open a business on Friday afternoon and have it going by Monday morning, Ala Little Rascals. No business plan, not talk with the city, no understanding of how their business fits in with the city and vice-a-versa.
When I have gone to the building department, they have always been more than helpful. They have given me permits for fences, electrical work, building permits for porches, and have always been available to come out and discuss what I want to do, what the city needs to see, and what is the best way to get there.
When I have gone around the building department in my early years, it has always been a nightmare. A good example would be running plumbing and electrical, then putting up the drywall, papering, trim it out only to hear, the wall has to come down so that the inspectors can see the work. This is easy to understand.
What is harder to understand, is the random acts of vigilance that crop up now and then. Lynn's story, Natique Gift Shop are two that come to mind. But we all have bad days, we all wake up occasionally on the wrong side of the bed, we all have things that get our goat. So I chalk some of this up to who knows.
I have had many conversations with Bob, Jeff and Ed Fitzgerald from the building department. They are all good reasonable people. With my latest venture into the world of part time sign cop, Ed explained, "We are really busy with house and business inspections, so the signs have fallen down on the list as they are not as important as, wiring, walls, foundations, etc." This makes sense to me.
However the city does have a reputation for being small business unfriendly, and/or even builder unfriendly. when I got my house rewired, the electrician I wanted, did not what to work in Lakewood. He had heard horror story after horror story. But I told him I would pay any and all fees associated with the job. So we got him approved, bonded and permits. He did the job and Bob McFarland(?) came out and inspected the work. He thought it was the nicest electrical job he had ever seen. Today that electrician works in Lakewood all the time and loves it.
Now to the tri-fold brochure. Attention span is short, even for those opening a business and risking their life savings. A tri-fold brochure could address and hammer home many of the concerns of the city, while providing a nice check list any business could use to get started. Simple things like call and ask. Maybe it could be paid for by businesses in Lakewood that can help. I know Erie Designs and A. Graphic solution would love to be on it under signs. I would bet Tim Lasky wouldn't mind being under accounting. The Chamber would certainly list as would First Federal, so the tri-fold would cost the city nothing.
Then if it didn't work we could hire the greeter to hand the brochure to the new business person. I am but a small business person. I would rather spend $125.00 to address the problem than $40,000. Especially if the $40,000 idea would still need the $125.00 idea to accomplish the goal. Also, i could be wrong bu the $40,000 would eat up half of the surplus the city currently enjoys in the budget!
What about making the landlord semi-responsible for the first 30 days of a business. Illegal signage - address the landlord. Unsafe build out, address the landlord.
But is the city is percieved as small business unfriendly, and the city is filled with small business store fronts it has to get pro-active, and fight to correct that notion. In the next couple weeks a private group will launch a program that will save small businesses up to $1,000 a month, while helping to bring in customers and sales. It will only be offered in Lakewood, and should take a small step to turn the notion around that Lakewood is not business friendly. The story is written for the paper, we are just waiting for the word on when we can run it.
.
Steve Davis prints every piece of paper in Lakewood. the single exception would be the Observer. But if he had a web press he would have that job as well. I believe that Vedda Litho does much of the printing for the city, but I could be wrong. If Vedda had a web press he would also have the Observer print job.
Joan/Lynn
We all know horror stories, but many of them are based in Moe's experience. Open a business on Friday afternoon and have it going by Monday morning, Ala Little Rascals. No business plan, not talk with the city, no understanding of how their business fits in with the city and vice-a-versa.
When I have gone to the building department, they have always been more than helpful. They have given me permits for fences, electrical work, building permits for porches, and have always been available to come out and discuss what I want to do, what the city needs to see, and what is the best way to get there.
When I have gone around the building department in my early years, it has always been a nightmare. A good example would be running plumbing and electrical, then putting up the drywall, papering, trim it out only to hear, the wall has to come down so that the inspectors can see the work. This is easy to understand.
What is harder to understand, is the random acts of vigilance that crop up now and then. Lynn's story, Natique Gift Shop are two that come to mind. But we all have bad days, we all wake up occasionally on the wrong side of the bed, we all have things that get our goat. So I chalk some of this up to who knows.
I have had many conversations with Bob, Jeff and Ed Fitzgerald from the building department. They are all good reasonable people. With my latest venture into the world of part time sign cop, Ed explained, "We are really busy with house and business inspections, so the signs have fallen down on the list as they are not as important as, wiring, walls, foundations, etc." This makes sense to me.
However the city does have a reputation for being small business unfriendly, and/or even builder unfriendly. when I got my house rewired, the electrician I wanted, did not what to work in Lakewood. He had heard horror story after horror story. But I told him I would pay any and all fees associated with the job. So we got him approved, bonded and permits. He did the job and Bob McFarland(?) came out and inspected the work. He thought it was the nicest electrical job he had ever seen. Today that electrician works in Lakewood all the time and loves it.
Now to the tri-fold brochure. Attention span is short, even for those opening a business and risking their life savings. A tri-fold brochure could address and hammer home many of the concerns of the city, while providing a nice check list any business could use to get started. Simple things like call and ask. Maybe it could be paid for by businesses in Lakewood that can help. I know Erie Designs and A. Graphic solution would love to be on it under signs. I would bet Tim Lasky wouldn't mind being under accounting. The Chamber would certainly list as would First Federal, so the tri-fold would cost the city nothing.
Then if it didn't work we could hire the greeter to hand the brochure to the new business person. I am but a small business person. I would rather spend $125.00 to address the problem than $40,000. Especially if the $40,000 idea would still need the $125.00 idea to accomplish the goal. Also, i could be wrong bu the $40,000 would eat up half of the surplus the city currently enjoys in the budget!
What about making the landlord semi-responsible for the first 30 days of a business. Illegal signage - address the landlord. Unsafe build out, address the landlord.
But is the city is percieved as small business unfriendly, and the city is filled with small business store fronts it has to get pro-active, and fight to correct that notion. In the next couple weeks a private group will launch a program that will save small businesses up to $1,000 a month, while helping to bring in customers and sales. It will only be offered in Lakewood, and should take a small step to turn the notion around that Lakewood is not business friendly. The story is written for the paper, we are just waiting for the word on when we can run it.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
-
Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Lynn
I have also had similar experiences...after finishing an 80K addition kitchen,etc., we got cited (in Dec.) for the unpainted cedar shakes on the addition (Pissed doesn't even describe my reaction).
Lakewood doesnt have a point of sale inspection requirement. Many cities do, and problems such as yours with "surprises" could be minimized. of cours it also put a crimp in both residential and commercial sales. Of course, a lot of surrises can be eliminated with a quality inspection before closing.
But back to the business issue....as long as commercial landlords are more willing to "get a buck" for a store front rented to a junk store than to put money into their propertie to attract businesses that can endure, those businesses will continue to look for "modern" facilities. The city issuing citations for building code violations is a commercial property owner's isssue which is passed on to the unwitting tennant.
Jeff
I have also had similar experiences...after finishing an 80K addition kitchen,etc., we got cited (in Dec.) for the unpainted cedar shakes on the addition (Pissed doesn't even describe my reaction).
Lakewood doesnt have a point of sale inspection requirement. Many cities do, and problems such as yours with "surprises" could be minimized. of cours it also put a crimp in both residential and commercial sales. Of course, a lot of surrises can be eliminated with a quality inspection before closing.
But back to the business issue....as long as commercial landlords are more willing to "get a buck" for a store front rented to a junk store than to put money into their propertie to attract businesses that can endure, those businesses will continue to look for "modern" facilities. The city issuing citations for building code violations is a commercial property owner's isssue which is passed on to the unwitting tennant.
Jeff
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
I guess I would reply that if we needed "thousands of brochures", Lakewood wouldn't have much of a problem in the first place.
I have no quarrel with the building department or its inspectors. They do what they are hired to do, and from my limited experience and second-hand info, they do it with varying degrees of personal charm.
But charming isn't their job, and I'm not suggesting it is.
What I'm saying is that Lakewood has been ignored by the chains (the way we want it, right?) so that leaves it up to individual entrepreneurs to keep those storefronts filled. The evil Applebee's has entire teams of people whose jobs it is to get new locations up and running, down to code compliance, etc.
Moe had no such team, clearly. Any place can offer them a brochure and a website. You can go down to City Hall and get that info now.
I'm talking a bit of people-to-people schmooze, a little personal hand-holding. Ms. Farris, according to her story, ultimately got it from the mayor at the time. I'm saying that someone whose job it was to work with small business would be a better investment for the city than some of the things I've seen or heard proposed.
As for more heat on property owners, sure. But let's remember that THEY'RE not necessarily evil, either. Everyone wants a reasonable chance to make a reasonable buck. Sugar beats vinegar any day.
I have no quarrel with the building department or its inspectors. They do what they are hired to do, and from my limited experience and second-hand info, they do it with varying degrees of personal charm.
But charming isn't their job, and I'm not suggesting it is.
What I'm saying is that Lakewood has been ignored by the chains (the way we want it, right?) so that leaves it up to individual entrepreneurs to keep those storefronts filled. The evil Applebee's has entire teams of people whose jobs it is to get new locations up and running, down to code compliance, etc.
Moe had no such team, clearly. Any place can offer them a brochure and a website. You can go down to City Hall and get that info now.
I'm talking a bit of people-to-people schmooze, a little personal hand-holding. Ms. Farris, according to her story, ultimately got it from the mayor at the time. I'm saying that someone whose job it was to work with small business would be a better investment for the city than some of the things I've seen or heard proposed.
As for more heat on property owners, sure. But let's remember that THEY'RE not necessarily evil, either. Everyone wants a reasonable chance to make a reasonable buck. Sugar beats vinegar any day.
-
David Scott
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:06 pm
I agree with Joan that a brochure is not the answer.
When a new business starts, they are inundated with junk mail. Credit cards, real estate, suppliers, government, local retail shops, etc. One more piece of mail is not going to be read.
Also, expecting a small business owner to go to the City is not realistic. Lets start with the idea that many small business owners don't trust the government. The government takes their money in taxes and imposes costly regulations without any assistance. Also, if my goal is to open as quickly as possible, I am not calling the city and asking them to come out and inspect my place so they can delay my opening. I am going to take my chance I can slip through the cracks.
Lakewood does have a bad reputation, and signage is the major problem. This board doesn't help things by having sign police running through town ready to slap non-qualifying signs on the internet. There should be some civic organization willing to work as a liason between the city and the small business owern. if this is a City employee, great - but it will cost more then $40,000 for a dedicated, empathatic, quick-thinker. Other cities have Chamber of Commereces that setup business incubators, work with new business owners and try to promote the City. Maybe Lakewood has this, I have not run into it.
If we truly are a free-trade capatilistic society, then why don't we promote that concept. You don't like Harrison's signs - don't shop there. I don't shop at Wal-Mart for social concerns and don't shop Marc's because they don't take debit cards. If I want to buy a lamp at Harrison's the sign is my choice.
When a new business starts, they are inundated with junk mail. Credit cards, real estate, suppliers, government, local retail shops, etc. One more piece of mail is not going to be read.
Also, expecting a small business owner to go to the City is not realistic. Lets start with the idea that many small business owners don't trust the government. The government takes their money in taxes and imposes costly regulations without any assistance. Also, if my goal is to open as quickly as possible, I am not calling the city and asking them to come out and inspect my place so they can delay my opening. I am going to take my chance I can slip through the cracks.
Lakewood does have a bad reputation, and signage is the major problem. This board doesn't help things by having sign police running through town ready to slap non-qualifying signs on the internet. There should be some civic organization willing to work as a liason between the city and the small business owern. if this is a City employee, great - but it will cost more then $40,000 for a dedicated, empathatic, quick-thinker. Other cities have Chamber of Commereces that setup business incubators, work with new business owners and try to promote the City. Maybe Lakewood has this, I have not run into it.
If we truly are a free-trade capatilistic society, then why don't we promote that concept. You don't like Harrison's signs - don't shop there. I don't shop at Wal-Mart for social concerns and don't shop Marc's because they don't take debit cards. If I want to buy a lamp at Harrison's the sign is my choice.
-
Mark Timieski
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:47 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Design Guidelines…
A booklet that gives preferences to what our city actually wants, so new businesses can work towards something.
The issue appears to be new businesses have to deal with the architectural review board. The review board is put in the position to tell businesses what they don’t like, but cannot offer encouragement to what a business should look like.
The Mainstreet folks (http://www.mainstreet.org/) were surprised that we didn’t have guidelines in place.
Many cities have guidelines (not that any of these would be suitable template for us):
http://www.columbusinfobase.org/Univers ... elines.pdf
http://cpc.cuyahogacounty.us/docs/newbu ... elines.pdf
http://www.newrichmond.org/Guidelines%20Text.doc%20.pdf
Guidelines for generating guidelines
http://www.ohiohistory.org/ohswww/resou ... guide.html
The issue appears to be new businesses have to deal with the architectural review board. The review board is put in the position to tell businesses what they don’t like, but cannot offer encouragement to what a business should look like.
The Mainstreet folks (http://www.mainstreet.org/) were surprised that we didn’t have guidelines in place.
Many cities have guidelines (not that any of these would be suitable template for us):
http://www.columbusinfobase.org/Univers ... elines.pdf
http://cpc.cuyahogacounty.us/docs/newbu ... elines.pdf
http://www.newrichmond.org/Guidelines%20Text.doc%20.pdf
Guidelines for generating guidelines
http://www.ohiohistory.org/ohswww/resou ... guide.html
-
Joan Roberts
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:28 am
Re: Design Guidelines…
Mark Timieski wrote:A booklet that gives preferences to what our city actually wants, so new businesses can work towards something.
The issue appears to be new businesses have to deal with the architectural review board. The review board is put in the position to tell businesses what they don’t like, but cannot offer encouragement to what a business should look like.
The Mainstreet folks (http://www.mainstreet.org/) were surprised that we didn’t have guidelines in place.
lMany cities have guidelines (not that any of these would be suitable template for us):
http://www.columbusinfobase.org/Univers ... elines.pdf
http://cpc.cuyahogacounty.us/docs/newbu ... elines.pdf
http://www.newrichmond.org/Guidelines%20Text.doc%20.pdf
Guidelines for generating guidelines
http://www.ohiohistory.org/ohswww/resou ... gnguide.ht
Good points. Excellent, critical points, in fact.
I don't know that we've had the conversation about what "our city actually wants." and if we did, I don't remember being asked.
So that's where we start. Who moderates the conversation, and what's the venue?
-
beladubby
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:25 pm
if I can offer the other side of the story. I bought a mixed use building in August 2004 and it came with a list of violations which I agreed to fix upon transfer of ownership. I spent almost 4 months just redoing the commecrcial space which included
walls, electric, plumbing,sinks for food prep etc and the city really walked me through things and gave me plenty of help and time to make sure things were done correctly.
The building dept. can be sticklers but they seemed fair and to their credit in my case, helpful..
walls, electric, plumbing,sinks for food prep etc and the city really walked me through things and gave me plenty of help and time to make sure things were done correctly.
The building dept. can be sticklers but they seemed fair and to their credit in my case, helpful..
bela dubby coffee, beer &art
13321 Madison Ave.
Lakewood Ohio 44107
216-221-4479
t,w,h 10-10
fri/sat 10-midnight
sun/mon closed
13321 Madison Ave.
Lakewood Ohio 44107
216-221-4479
t,w,h 10-10
fri/sat 10-midnight
sun/mon closed
-
Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Dave Scott - I agree with Joan that a brochure is not the answer.
JOB - Let me get this straight so we send a person over with no printed information, and hope that this new busy business person takes notes?
Dave Scott - When a new business starts, they are inundated with junk mail. Credit cards, real estate, suppliers, government, local retail shops, etc. One more piece of mail is not going to be read.
JOB - I figure this business is going to fail. If they cannot sort through mail, and email and realize what is important and what isn't they would have very little business sense.
Dave Scott - Also, expecting a small business owner to go to the City is not realistic. Lets start with the idea that many small business owners don't trust the government. The government takes their money in taxes and imposes costly regulations without any assistance. Also, if my goal is to open as quickly as possible, I am not calling the city and asking them to come out and inspect my place so they can delay my opening. I am going to take my chance I can slip through the cracks.
JOB - I am not sure if you own a business or not. But anyone entering into business and starting with and adversarial relationship with the city is prone to be one of those businesses that say, "Lakewood is not business friendly." My grandmother taught me a very important lesson in life, "If you are going to play in someones yard it is always best to ask permission." Opening a business is a city is joining into partnership with that city and community. Ignore the rules, and ignore the people that enforce those rules, and you start a war that never needed to be started. Read John Crino's post about talking with the city, and how they helped.
Let's look to the other side. Bar packed with people, fire starts, no one gets out, and wiring is to blame. I can hear the cry now about who let this happen? Look in Crazy Rita's TV, Metal, all sorts of stuff on the wall. Isn't one of the jobs of the building department to make sure the stuff is wired safely, and will not fall. Look at Moe's sign. 40lbs of press-board hanging over a sidewalk. We all know particle board falls apart when wet or stressed. When not if the sign fell and hit someone chances are it would have killed them. Who would have been blamed?
It is so much easier, so much safer and so much faster to call the city often and early.
Dave Scott - Lakewood does have a bad reputation, and signage is the major problem. This board doesn't help things by having sign police running through town ready to slap non-qualifying signs on the internet. There should be some civic organization willing to work as a liason between the city and the small business owern. if this is a City employee, great - but it will cost more then $40,000 for a dedicated, empathatic, quick-thinker. Other cities have Chamber of Commereces that setup business incubators, work with new business owners and try to promote the City. Maybe Lakewood has this, I have not run into it.
JOB - Are you sure they are not helped by sign police? Moe's sign dangerous. Harrison's original signs, dangerous, and in fact blew away from the building, they were so badly done and positioned. Is it better for a store to follow the laws of the city or should we let liquidation companies that are at best carpetbaggers come in write their own laws and disappear into the night when the profit is made? Yesterday i watched the liquidators use ever rule they could to get around every law they could. Now I expect this from North Coast Bedding, but not from Harrison's. If Harrison has now decided that this is the best way to bring in people, I am willing to bet they are wrong, and all they are doing is making it hard for others, that are more committed to this city to do business. Vans with banners loosely tied to them parked legally infront of other stores, help those stores how? When those Van's are moved to cover needed parking spots, and moved back and forth ever hour help other businesses how? People walking with big Harrison's sign on sticks standing in front of other store windows help those stores how? Would Lakewood be better served to have a couple hundred people walking around with large signs on sticks? Would it be tolerated in Crocker Park, Legacy Village or other faux town? No. WE do have a Chamber of Commerce, and on their counter is a bunch of stuff to help businesses get started and stay in business.
I'll be honest Harrison's has chosen to leave. I really do not care how they do. If they sold out tomorrow, they would still be leaving. I now worry about every other shop in the area. Those I want to see stay.
Dave Scott - If we truly are a free-trade capatilistic society, then why don't we promote that concept.
JOB - Because we are not. Merely buzzwords. I can think of hundreds of businesses that would boom in this town and others if your statement were true. But the government has regulated and outlawed most of those businesses. But let's pretend it is true. Not only will I not shop at Harrison's I will do everything possible to make sure people are aware, of the problem so that they can make informed choices as well.
Finally, A check list of who to call and when, and where to go for what would serve NO PURPOSE to those starting a business?
1) Notify City
2) Check occupancy
3) Call Chamber of Commerce
4) Meet with building department
4) Talk with review board
100)Call Lakewood Observer for opening article
Yeah I guess you and Joan are correct. Hide from the city and start a $40,000 a year welcome wagon program that talks slowly so notes can be made.
.
JOB - Let me get this straight so we send a person over with no printed information, and hope that this new busy business person takes notes?
Dave Scott - When a new business starts, they are inundated with junk mail. Credit cards, real estate, suppliers, government, local retail shops, etc. One more piece of mail is not going to be read.
JOB - I figure this business is going to fail. If they cannot sort through mail, and email and realize what is important and what isn't they would have very little business sense.
Dave Scott - Also, expecting a small business owner to go to the City is not realistic. Lets start with the idea that many small business owners don't trust the government. The government takes their money in taxes and imposes costly regulations without any assistance. Also, if my goal is to open as quickly as possible, I am not calling the city and asking them to come out and inspect my place so they can delay my opening. I am going to take my chance I can slip through the cracks.
JOB - I am not sure if you own a business or not. But anyone entering into business and starting with and adversarial relationship with the city is prone to be one of those businesses that say, "Lakewood is not business friendly." My grandmother taught me a very important lesson in life, "If you are going to play in someones yard it is always best to ask permission." Opening a business is a city is joining into partnership with that city and community. Ignore the rules, and ignore the people that enforce those rules, and you start a war that never needed to be started. Read John Crino's post about talking with the city, and how they helped.
Let's look to the other side. Bar packed with people, fire starts, no one gets out, and wiring is to blame. I can hear the cry now about who let this happen? Look in Crazy Rita's TV, Metal, all sorts of stuff on the wall. Isn't one of the jobs of the building department to make sure the stuff is wired safely, and will not fall. Look at Moe's sign. 40lbs of press-board hanging over a sidewalk. We all know particle board falls apart when wet or stressed. When not if the sign fell and hit someone chances are it would have killed them. Who would have been blamed?
It is so much easier, so much safer and so much faster to call the city often and early.
Dave Scott - Lakewood does have a bad reputation, and signage is the major problem. This board doesn't help things by having sign police running through town ready to slap non-qualifying signs on the internet. There should be some civic organization willing to work as a liason between the city and the small business owern. if this is a City employee, great - but it will cost more then $40,000 for a dedicated, empathatic, quick-thinker. Other cities have Chamber of Commereces that setup business incubators, work with new business owners and try to promote the City. Maybe Lakewood has this, I have not run into it.
JOB - Are you sure they are not helped by sign police? Moe's sign dangerous. Harrison's original signs, dangerous, and in fact blew away from the building, they were so badly done and positioned. Is it better for a store to follow the laws of the city or should we let liquidation companies that are at best carpetbaggers come in write their own laws and disappear into the night when the profit is made? Yesterday i watched the liquidators use ever rule they could to get around every law they could. Now I expect this from North Coast Bedding, but not from Harrison's. If Harrison has now decided that this is the best way to bring in people, I am willing to bet they are wrong, and all they are doing is making it hard for others, that are more committed to this city to do business. Vans with banners loosely tied to them parked legally infront of other stores, help those stores how? When those Van's are moved to cover needed parking spots, and moved back and forth ever hour help other businesses how? People walking with big Harrison's sign on sticks standing in front of other store windows help those stores how? Would Lakewood be better served to have a couple hundred people walking around with large signs on sticks? Would it be tolerated in Crocker Park, Legacy Village or other faux town? No. WE do have a Chamber of Commerce, and on their counter is a bunch of stuff to help businesses get started and stay in business.
I'll be honest Harrison's has chosen to leave. I really do not care how they do. If they sold out tomorrow, they would still be leaving. I now worry about every other shop in the area. Those I want to see stay.
Dave Scott - If we truly are a free-trade capatilistic society, then why don't we promote that concept.
JOB - Because we are not. Merely buzzwords. I can think of hundreds of businesses that would boom in this town and others if your statement were true. But the government has regulated and outlawed most of those businesses. But let's pretend it is true. Not only will I not shop at Harrison's I will do everything possible to make sure people are aware, of the problem so that they can make informed choices as well.
Finally, A check list of who to call and when, and where to go for what would serve NO PURPOSE to those starting a business?
1) Notify City
2) Check occupancy
3) Call Chamber of Commerce
4) Meet with building department
4) Talk with review board
100)Call Lakewood Observer for opening article
Yeah I guess you and Joan are correct. Hide from the city and start a $40,000 a year welcome wagon program that talks slowly so notes can be made.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama