The Bar Based Economy-Lakewood as the East Side of The Flats

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:25 pm

Joan Roberts stated

You violated the 11th Commandment, applicable only to Lakewooders.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighboring suburbs' chain restaurants

I think you missed my point, which was not so much a comment on any neighboring franchise, but rather, the thought of Bob Evans as a DESTINATION eatery....

I think of a destination eaterty as one that you would go out of your way for. There's a Bob Evans on 150th, one out on Lorain, and I480...and I can't think of the last time I made a special trip to go to them....BUT, that's just me.

As for coveting neighbor's restaurants I am guilty as sin. Give me a Hospitalty group (Salmon Dave's, et al) a microbrewery (Great Lakes) or a good Bar b que joint (how the hell did Bubba's end up in Avon?). Maybe a Dave's Cosmic subs? But I really don't want the same thing that you can find at every other interstate exit.

Jeff

Jim O'Bryan · Post by **Jim O'Bryan** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:36 pm

Joan

I think Jeff has nailed it far better than I. On the road, tired, hungry than you pull into a place where you can get known edible food. It is not that I hate chains, I just use them as emergencies, or specialties. Lately I have to be honest i have been going through the blahs with chain restaurants. Yet little different places always have something new to offer. Even burger and fries seem better at other places. Not being a Lakewood snob.

I am amazed that anyone would be at ihop except late at night. Pancakes are better at The Place to Be and The Coffee Pot. I mean Carubba's or Peppers or Fratello's? McDonald's or Rush Inn, WestEnd, Riverwood or even the Dinner for the same price?!

Not that I do not like them, but I too like supporting the locals and have found they make better and even cheaper meals.

.

Charyn Varkonyi · Post by **Charyn Varkonyi** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:55 pm

Joan:

... still laughing... and well... the grain of truth and all.... hee hee

Jeff/Jim:

I understand where you are coming from and while I agree to a point I have to say that in the arena of 'Family Style' restaurants, Bob Evans is a destination type when compared to IHOP, Perkins & Denny's. There is a LOT to be said for delightful small eateries; however, they usually cant handle the same amount of volume and therefore employ less people.

So no - I dont think of it in the same way I would consider Fat Fish Blue; however, for the catergory in which it rests, it is a clear leader and that was the frame I was considering it in.

Oh - and RE: IHOP... I have to say I couldnt stop laughing at the fact that the fine citizens of Lakewood would scorn a Denny's and then allow an IHOP... THAT was a heaping dose of nostalgia because today's IHOP isn't the fine place on Berea road my grandparents used to take me to... (Well I think it was Berea Road at least...). The two placecs in Lakewood that have been filthy EVRY time I have visited? IHOP & Marc's ... ugh!

Nevertheless, the idea was tossed to start the ball rolling - I LOVE the idea of courting Whole Foods (which no-one has right now on the wests side as opposed to Trader Joe's which isnt too far away) or even better yet - a full service garden center....

What else can we think of and then HOW do we make it happen???

Peace,
~Charyn

Mike Deneen · Post by **Mike Deneen** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:57 pm

I don't think Bob Evans would work there.

Bob Evans locations tend to be immediately accessible from highways, such as the location immediately off 271 by my office in Mayfield. Detroit road is a quite a bit off the main highway.

Bob works well as road stop food....nicer than Waffle House, which is another of my favorite road trip stops.

BTW, are we sure they are closing that store? Why that one and not the Edgecliff location?

Charyn Varkonyi · Post by **Charyn Varkonyi** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:17 pm

I think it will be both -

Bob Evans has a few nice locations that are non-highway as well; however, your point is well taken - t'was just a thought and is easily forgotten. What other ideas would you think for that space?

Peace,
~Charyn

Donald Farris · Post by **Donald Farris** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:14 pm

Hi,
I have to jump in and clarify a notion Mr. Call made in this thread.

Mr. Call said,

"The City should use eminent domain to take the land to build a City lot. If the meters charged one dollar per hour the lot would have an immediate positive cash flow."

Maybe, I read this wrong, and if so, please correct me.

Mr. Call it is very expensive for a city to use eminent domain. They do not get the property for $0.00. If the City wishes to acquire the properties in question then doing so through negotiation is the best (and cheapest) way.

I am well aware of parking being an issue in Lakewood. Perhaps making more metered lots (that charge till 3:00 am with meter maids issuing tickets till then) may be a solution. But if you wish to make an argument for the lots based on finances, please remember you must weigh that dollar per hour (actually kind of expensive) against the property tax and income taxes generated from the existing buildings. I don't have real numbers, but I have to think the City loses money with removing the homes and putting up parking lots.

If only we could do angled parking on the street. Just east of this site is the part of Detroit I call the drag strip where people in a hurry cut to the right to pass and make 2 lane Detroit 4 lane till the first parked car. A clear marking of that space to the right as angled parking may convince these leadfeet to go south to I90 to blow the carbon out of their carbs.

Joan Roberts · Post by **Joan Roberts** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:11 am

Jeff Endress wrote: But I really don't want the same thing that you can find at every other interstate exit.

I guess I don't share the idea that multiple locations inherently affect the desirability of a restaurant or store.
Few places in Lakewood right now where you can take the kids for a quick bite on a Tuesday night. Seniors love the place. You may have never made a special trip to eat there, but please consider the possibility that others do.
But really, it's not about Bob Evans.
Hey, if it's a chi-chi West Coast fusion restaurant, I'm happy. If it's a Cucina Bravo, I'm happy. If it's a Bob Evans, I'm happy. This isn't the issue that keeps me awake at night.
What you DON'T want is one of those CBRE Ellis "ForSale" signs on the corner in perrpetuity.
PS to Charyn. IHOP underwent a rebirth several years ago. The new ones are far removed from the ones you remember. Where Denny's has declined, IHOP has improved.

And to Mr. O. Yes, I am a tasteless visigoth who wouldn't know a good meal if it bit her in the...lip. I go to 3 Birds and ask for ketchup. I figure, why drop $200 at Johnny's when a Cavs Triple Burger fiills you up just as quiick? :roll:

The best part about Lakewood is that there are 150 places to buy Beer Nuts. My (rare) dates appreciate that about me.

Bill Call · Post by **Bill Call** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:22 am

Donald Farris wrote:Mr. Call it is very expensive for a city to use eminent domain. They do not get the property for $0.00. If the City wishes to acquire the properties in question then doing so through negotiation is the best (and cheapest) way......

I don't have real numbers, but I have to think the City loses money with removing the homes and putting up parking lots.

1. The City intends to engage in a partnership with the current property owner to build a parking lot. Since that's the case the only question is: Who should own the lot? If the current owner wants to use his own money to build a parking lot I am all for it. If he wants the City to build it the City should own it.

2. Parking lots that generate revenue pay property taxes even if owned by the City. Since the property in question is appraised at only about $200,000 the amount of property taxes raised by a parking lot would be greater than the taxes currently paid.

3. If the City financed the entire purchase price and the construction cost of a new lot the monthly P&I would be about $3,400. The lot could easily generate twice that much.

4. I like your idea about patrolling parking lots in the evening hours. Since the police are constantly in the area they can take a few minutes to issue parking tickets.

5. I don't think one dollar per hour for parking in the proposed lot is excessive.

6. Not to many years ago Lakewood had 70,000 residents. We now have 55,000 residents but the same number of housing units. At some point we are going to have to accept the demolition of some existing housing or accept abandoned houses on every street. It would be nice if the City had an existing strategy to deal with the problem but it doesn't.

7. I agree with you on eminent domain. The best option is to negotiate a reasonable purchase price. How much is a vacant run down house worth in today's market?

Mark Crnolatas · Post by **Mark Crnolatas** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:05 pm

Ever have Bob Evans' biscuits and honey ? Mmmmmm.

Stan Austin · Post by **Stan Austin** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:06 pm

It's sausage gravy and biscuits for me

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:22 pm

What you DON'T want is one of those CBRE Ellis "ForSale" signs on the corner in perrpetuity

Couldn't agree with you more Joan.

I didn't mean to sound snobbish, just that I think we can do better than Bob Evans, but if that's the best we can do, at least it will be a full lot and generate taxes, etc.

Frankly. as I drove by the lot today, I really think that the space is too big for just a restaurant, unless you're seating 200. I'd give my eye teeth for a Trader Joe's.

Jeff

Jim O'Bryan · Post by **Jim O'Bryan** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:32 pm

Joan Roberts wrote:
Jeff Endress wrote: And to Mr. O. Yes, I am a tasteless visigoth who wouldn't know a good meal if it bit her in the...lip. I go to 3 Birds and ask for ketchup. I figure, why drop $200 at Johnny's when a Cavs Triple Burger fiills you up just as quiick? The best part about Lakewood is that there are 150 places to buy Beer Nuts. My (rare) dates appreciate that about me.

Thanks for clarifying :wink:

You sobered me up when I found Moe's Hook Ups. I would take 150 ihops over moe's.

Loved your list, but saying IHOP improved! Cleaner yes, food no.

peace

,

Joan Roberts · Post by **Joan Roberts** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:52 pm

I really don't get into the "let's put this or that here or there" game, because we don't really have a lot to say about it. But.......

I was in the Bunts-Detroit GE today and took a renewed look at the place, inside and out. With the other parking lot on the other side of whatever little street that is, that's a pretty impressive-sized lot. PLUS it's just a straight jog from 90.
That's enough space do something fairly big and exciting with. I hope the city takes a pro-active stance in looking at the possibiliBties for that site.

Jim O'Bryan · Post by **Jim O'Bryan** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:42 am

Joan Roberts wrote:I really don't get into the "let's put this or that here or there" game, because we don't really have a lot to say about it. But.......

I was in the Bunts-Detroit GE today and took a renewed look at the place, inside and out. With the other parking lot on the other side of whatever little street that is, that's a pretty impressive-sized lot. PLUS it's just a straight jog from 90.
That's enough space do something fairly big and exciting with. I hope the city takes a pro-active stance in looking at the possibilities for that site.

Joan

A very interesting predicament.

The lot is large, but not large enough to do a big development. It would also be great as a spot for an anchor, but nothing really nearby to capitalize on an anchor.

Could the surrounding property be bought up leading the the high school and field?

90 is at the end of Bunts, and if they were to remove parking, and the development was not HUGE maybe Bunts could handle it.

Interesting thoughts...

Jeff Endress · Post by **Jeff Endress** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:09 am

I'm not altogether certain, but while GE customers use the lot across Park Haven Row for parking, I suspect that Hixon's may have an interest in it...

Which brings to mind that a Trader Joe's would make a great neighbor for Hixon's, maybe with a couple of specialty shops and a small bistro? I think there would be room.

Jeff