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Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:06 am
by Bill Call
One of the sad facts of the Canadian system is that well connected politicans and their well connected followers have access to better care:


http://cbc.qwapi.com/site?t=xncRD1Eb8xb ... hw&sid=cbc

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:10 am
by Grace O'Malley
Bill

For every "negative" story about Canadian health care, there are equal numbers of stories about abominable health care in the US.

For example, this series just last week in the NYT detailed how patients across the US are routinely exposed to higher does of radiation than they should get, and some of them are severely injured or killed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/us/27radiation.html?ref=health

How would you feel about getting an X-ray or a CT scan and being overdosed? Happens all the time but it doesn't make the daily news and much of the time the patient is unaware they were overdosed?

Does this mean our health care is substandard?

You cannot pick and choose anecdotal information and use it to "prove" Canadian healthcare is poor. As I've said before, I have many friends in Canada and they are very happy with the quality and quantity of the healthcare provided and they love that its not tied to their employment, there are no forms or bills, and they have eye and dental coverage.

Funny thing is, I believe the Canadian healthcare system will pay for Mr. Williams US treatment. I'm trying to confirm that.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:10 pm
by Stephen Eisel
One of the sad facts of the Canadian system is that well connected politicans and their well connected followers have access to better care:
Elitist! :wink:


You cannot pick and choose anecdotal information and use it to "prove" Canadian healthcare is poor.
Key words "better care"

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:18 pm
by Stephen Eisel
sidebar:

http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/popu ... re-system/

The media and political community have made a big deal out of the fact that the U.S. ranks 37 out of 191 countries on the World Health Organization’s Health Care Ranking System. Is this tool a credible way to compare quality health care delivered in the U.S. vs the rest of the world?


Bill, I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the attached article.. thanks

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:59 pm
by Grace O'Malley
Stephen

You apparently equate "better" health care with "more expensive" health care.

If the rankings were based on the amount spent, the US would lead the pack.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:43 pm
by Jim DeVito
And yes Grace we do.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

Note the graph in the middle. Where we seem to rank near the bottom in life expediency yet spend a crazy amount compared to others. I'll admit the data is old. up to the year 2000 I think. What are we doing wrong?

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:47 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Grace O'Malley wrote:Stephen

You apparently equate "better" health care with "more expensive" health care.

If the rankings were based on the amount spent, the US would lead the pack.

No, factor in the increased demand for hospital services and prescription drugs and you will begin to understand why healthcare cost are increasing. I do not equate more expensive with better.


In summary, therefore, the WHO ranking system has minimal objectivity in its “ranking” of world health. It more accurately can be described as a ranking system inherently biased to reward the uniformity of “government” delivered (i.e. “socialized”) health care, independent of the care actually delivered. In that regard the relatively low ranking of the US in the WHO system can be viewed as a “positive” testament to at least some residual “free market” influence (also read “personal freedom”) in the American Health Care system. The American health care consumer needs to understand what the WHO ranking does and does not say about American health. Don’t be fooled by “big government” politicians and the liberal media who are attempting to use this statistic to push for socialized medicine in the United States. It says essentially nothing about the delivery of health care or the quality of that delivery in the US. It does say that, so far, the American health care consumer has at least some personal freedom to seek the best health care available, and is not yet relegated to the “one size fits all” philosophy of government sponsored health care systems.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:20 pm
by Stephen Eisel
"more expensive" health care
Why? Administrative costs? The US spends almost 3½ times more on administrative cost than Canada. The type of medical procedure? Medical procedures in the US are more likely to involve expensive high-tech equipment. FDA? Price control?

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:37 pm
by Jim DeVito
I vote admin costs. A friend of mine just filled out an application for new insurance. The form was 16 pages long double sided and that was not even the health questioner.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:33 am
by Stan Austin
Competition, return on investment, and private market are all the primary drivers of our much too expensive health care system. And, that system generally ranks about number 26 of all the developed countries in most major categories. Most expensive, very mediocre results. We even rank below Cuba in infant mortality.

A single payer system, government run, would go a long way towards improving the deficiencies of an over reliance on a private market system.

Stan Austin

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:27 am
by Bill Call
Stephen Eisel wrote:http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/popu ... re-system/
The media and political community have made a big deal out of the fact that the U.S. ranks 37 out of 191 countries on the World Health Organization’s Health Care Ranking System. Is this tool a credible way to compare quality health care delivered in the U.S. vs the rest of the world?

Bill, I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the attached article.. thanks


Statists like to use infant mortality rate to judge health care systems even though it is a very poor measure of the quality of a health care system. The infant mortality rate is computed by dividing the number infant deaths by each 1000 live births. Infants that are counted as born in the US who die soon after birth are counted as live births. Other countries would count that same infant as being still born.

Jim DeVito wrote:And yes Grace we do.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

Note the graph in the middle. Where we seem to rank near the bottom in life expediency yet spend a crazy amount compared to others. I'll admit the data is old. up to the year 2000 I think. What are we doing wrong?


If you remove homicides and death by accident the US is on top. Neither has anything to do with the quality of health care.

Jim DeVito wrote:I vote admin costs. A friend of mine just filled out an application for new insurance. The form was 16 pages long double sided and that was not even the health questioner.



Our company just sent our health insurance out for quotes from three new providers. Each provider accepted the standard State of Ohio application. The application was four pages long.


Stan Austin wrote:Competition, return on investment, and private market are all the primary drivers of our much too expensive health care system. And, that system generally ranks about number 26 of all the developed countries in most major categories. Most expensive, very mediocre results. We even rank below Cuba in infant mortality.
A single payer system, government run, would go a long way towards improving the deficiencies of an over reliance on a private market system.
Stan Austin


It doesn’t surprise me that an old Statist like you would compare the Cuban system favorably to the US system.

When Castro needed surgery for his cancer he went to Spain. If the average Cuban tried to go to Spain to get medical care he would be imprisoned.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html
http://www.standard.net/topics/opinion/ ... es-country
http://www.biggovhealth.org/resource/my ... ure-birth/

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:09 am
by Grace O'Malley
Actually, the PM going where he chooses for a procedure is really no different than how things operate here in the US.

If you have insurance, it may decline to pay for a procedure (and in fact, this happens all the time.) Your choices then depend on your income. If you can afford it, you pay for the procedure yourself.

Those without insurance or without means do without.

The PM has money. The procedure isn't available or it isn't covered, we don't know the actual circumstances. So he does what any rich American would do, he pays for it himself and has it done wherever he can find a willing provider.

I suspect he is having a stent placed or by-pass surgery. In most countries outside the US, bypass is rare. Medical studies have shown that pharmaceuticals produce similar results at much lower cost and mortality. In Germany, for example, you'd be placed on anti-coagulants, statins, and ACE inhibitors to treat arterial disease. You'd also have to make lifestyle changes, diet and exercise, along with the medications. Ssome people prefer what they see as a quick fix.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:32 am
by Roy Pitchford
Stan Austin wrote:A single payer system, government run, would go a long way towards improving the deficiencies of an over reliance on a private market system.

Stan Austin


What happens when the government can't afford to your health care needs...let's check with one of the president's health advisors.

"Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example Is is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."
--Ezekiel Emanuel, health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget

In the Lancet, Jan. 31, 2009, Dr. Emanuel and co-authors presented a "complete lives system" for the allocation of very scarce resources, such as kidneys, vaccines, dialysis machines, intensive care beds, and others. "One maximizing strategy involves saving the most individual lives, and it has motivated policies on allocation of influenza vaccines and responses to bioterrorism. . . . Other things being equal, we should always save five lives rather than one.

"However, other things are rarely equal--whether to save one 20-year-old, who might live another 60 years, if saved, or three 70-year-olds, who could only live for another 10 years each--is unclear."
In fact, Dr. Emanuel makes a clear choice: "When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get changes that are attenuated."

Image
"Principles for Allocation of Scarce Medical Interventions" The Lancet, January 31, 2009

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203706604574374463280098676.html

How soon until the government can't afford health care? Let's check the debt clock!
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Current medicare liabilities stand at over $74.4 trillion. Prescription drugs add another $18.7 trillion.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:26 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Actually, the PM going where he chooses for a procedure is really no different than how things operate here in the US.
I am so dizzy from all of this spinning. He is going to the US because the procedure is not available in Canada. Just maybe, socialized medicine / government run healthcare cannot meet the same standards of health care as a "free market health care system?" More importantly, what if the Premier was not able to flee the Canadian healthcare system? Death? Thank Buddha for the American Healthcare system, for once.

Re: Canadian Premier Heads To US For Heart Surgey

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:19 pm
by Jim DeVito
Did I miss the part where it says the procedure is not available in Canada?

You all keep saying that this way and that way (the WHO thing) is not a good measure of america's health care system. So how is the PM's choice some come here a better measure?

And Roy, How is it that it is only certain thing you complain about not being able to afford. Where are we getting the money for these two wars? There are poorly designed counters for that too.

http://www.costofwar.com/