Jon Stewarthttp://bluelori.blogspot.com/2009/12/po ... ed-by.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPUpIBWGp8
Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created Jon Stewart
http://bluelori.blogspot.com/2009/12/po ... ed-by.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPUpIBWGp8
Jon Stewarthttp://bluelori.blogspot.com/2009/12/po ... ed-by.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgPUpIBWGp8
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Dustin James
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:59 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Global warming has been recently re-spun as "climate change" which is a lot easier to justify, because - hey look outside. Today looks different than yesterday! It is still blamed on man. But because of a cult-like belief by people with righteous indignation at anyone who would question their science, the end must justify the means at any cost.
So armed with this moral imperative, they will self select their membership, rally the true believers, cook the data and march the United States down a road where business is already hampered by giants like India and China, to force our citizens to pay more for energy. Many of these same believers in congress managed to stonewall having nuclear energy plants built for the last 40 years, while France is doing quite well with it.
America has managed to ship most manufacturing overseas (to among others, these same big countries), thanks in no small part to over-reaching unions, shaking down the sponsoring business to a point where the end customers won't pay the high price. There are plenty of reasons we can't compete (which RC will undoubtedly expound on - usually citing Reagan and other non-Democrats).
But now with climate change, there is yet another opportunity to shoot ourselves in the foot before the race starts. Small businesses that depend on energy to even be in business, will be taxed for turning on electricity. These can be so called clean business, non-manufacturing tech jobs, things where we still can compete. It is taxing the life blood of our economy at a time when we can't afford to be taxed. "It's the economy stupid" as James Carville so famously and rightfully chided George Bush senior.
This is where the loony science of the environmental fringe, meets our bottom line. Everybody wants to clean things up, but attacking CO2 which we exhale naturally and that plants actually like, is way off the charts. Taxing us for using energy that would have been cheap if we had started more nuclear plants. Evidently some major players in this cult have been cooking data for a very long time. Even if it ends tomorrow (it won't), Al Gore has made $100 million off of it, far more than he would have made as an ex-pres. I guess revenge is living well and laughing all the way to the bank.
.
So armed with this moral imperative, they will self select their membership, rally the true believers, cook the data and march the United States down a road where business is already hampered by giants like India and China, to force our citizens to pay more for energy. Many of these same believers in congress managed to stonewall having nuclear energy plants built for the last 40 years, while France is doing quite well with it.
America has managed to ship most manufacturing overseas (to among others, these same big countries), thanks in no small part to over-reaching unions, shaking down the sponsoring business to a point where the end customers won't pay the high price. There are plenty of reasons we can't compete (which RC will undoubtedly expound on - usually citing Reagan and other non-Democrats).
But now with climate change, there is yet another opportunity to shoot ourselves in the foot before the race starts. Small businesses that depend on energy to even be in business, will be taxed for turning on electricity. These can be so called clean business, non-manufacturing tech jobs, things where we still can compete. It is taxing the life blood of our economy at a time when we can't afford to be taxed. "It's the economy stupid" as James Carville so famously and rightfully chided George Bush senior.
This is where the loony science of the environmental fringe, meets our bottom line. Everybody wants to clean things up, but attacking CO2 which we exhale naturally and that plants actually like, is way off the charts. Taxing us for using energy that would have been cheap if we had started more nuclear plants. Evidently some major players in this cult have been cooking data for a very long time. Even if it ends tomorrow (it won't), Al Gore has made $100 million off of it, far more than he would have made as an ex-pres. I guess revenge is living well and laughing all the way to the bank.
.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
On a side note and a little off subject, I have begun using more environmentally friendly products around the house. I do believe that we need to have less of a negative impact on our environment. (so we do not f*** up our water supply and the ground where we grow our crops)
PS Great post Dustin
PS Great post Dustin
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ryan costa
- Posts: 2486
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Al Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
He had been involved since the 70s in the promotion of information communications technology. The internet did not create itself. It took 50 years of government funding and contracts to various universities and telephone companies and other corporations. It took a few decades of ARPANET. Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
The justification for alternative energy is - the much scarier and historically observed - antsy-ness governments and giant corporations and traders have over oil supplies.
The Global Warming issue is much less important.
Individuals tend to get hysterically pessimistic or hysterically optimistic when antsyness over oil is discussed. Aggregately, voters and higher-up cliques get hysterically aggressive in either case. Let's go "liberate Iraq". 3 trillion dollars. Chinese firms are buying oil rights, coal mines, and metal mines around the world: we'd better build more aircraft carriers and fighter jets: 1 trillion dollars. Better stimulate our economy: lower taxes and subsidize more sprawl.
Today the U.S. produces about as much oil as it produced in 1950. In 1950 scarcely any oil at all was imported. Trade was a small portion of GDP. economic "growth" was higher.
*************************
Chapter 2:
Unions haven't crippled the U.S. industrial base. Wall Street and politicians have crippled the U.S. industrial base. Monopoly industries invite Union accumulation of power. Anti-monopoly enforcement prevents unions from getting to strong.
Capital flows faster and easier across the United States than ever. and it has for decades. The big banks don't pour their money into plants and mills and factories in "right to work states" so much as they pour their money into shopping malls and sprawl and condos in the U.S., and factories and mills and plants in latin america and asia.
We're all NIMBYs to some degree. that's the point of living in Lakewood and not Cleveland. just let the kids with peanut allergies die out. jogging beside a road is equivalent to X amount of cigarettes.
I don't know of any politicians who have successfully and consistently achieved tariffs, imports, or quota ceilings. I don't know of any good politicians in the last 30 years. I don't know of any pro-good-business politicians or federal bureaucrats.
Most post-industrial economic growth essentially trickles down from increases in the costs of healthcare, and increases in the cost of education.
the "information age" essentially means that advances in production of most physical goods will approach practical patent-unenforcability faster. The income generating lifespan of patents will continue to decrease. so there will be increasing pressures to bid up the stock price, sell stock, and mandate obsolescence through lobbying and monopoly powers.
Historically, American economic "growth" has generally been higher when tariffs were higher, and when progressive income taxes were higher.
The greatest Social Engineering in the U.S. has been suburban sprawl, automobile addiction, and the subsequent oil "addiction". The greatest beneficiaries of this social engineering are more likely to be found marching in "tea parties". (I watched many of them drive in from out of town and park within a few blocks of the tax payer built Browns Stadium.) It is the most expensive social engineering program in America. in upfront costs, and then in spillover costs. Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of Americans got rich or wealthy enough building it and furnishing it. Thank the wealth redistribution programs.
Labor Unions make a strong case for wanting more. everybody wants the lifestyles marketed on television, movies, and advertising. It takes a lot more to be poor today than it used to. and a lot more to be middle class.
There is no libertarian history of the USA. There is simply an Abundance history of the USA. Government has always been big relative to the scope and scales of private enterprise. it just lagged behind a bit relative to the impact of new technology on civilization.
America has always been about the redistribution of wealth and resources. The colonies rebelled because they wanted the land. After the Revolution, Uncle Sam doled out a lot of land. About 95 percent of the contiguous continental united states. it was legit, I guess. Insiders got the early ins, and collected the resale or developed it.
*************************
CHAPTER 3:
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php
The East Anglia emails are all posted at the above link.
it is boring stuff to read. the details Scientists fret over.
So far each of them that I read do not indicate anything untoward.
The science of climate change seems much more valid than most of the economics i've encountered.
Please point out one email that is explicitly corrupt.
They are simply discussing which data sets to use, because multiple data tracking projects from around the world have been collected and compiled into the database. sometimes a weather measuring office in a particular area was moved to a new department in that area or renamed. it reads like they are mostly concerned about the text files having been parsed correctly when loaded into the database. and the formats of older databases translated correctly. Load old foxpro records into ACCESS: you'll see a lot of stuff screwed up.
Watch mythbusters on television. they talk a lot about statistical modeling: the boring parts of the show. many of us took statistics and physics in high school or college. do you remember how boring that was?
the climate guys seem more accurate than the wall street actuaries, judging by the stellar banking collapses.
The climate has been "changing" for the last 4.5 billion years. This is generally why very probable models of how significant carbon dioxide has been in driving weather patterns can be constructed. Scientists know more about climate and carbon dioxide than they know about quantum physics, astrophysics, and nuclear physics. in terms of the data they've had to work with and the conclusions they draw through rigorous statistical analysis.
Scientists have a pretty good idea of how much C02 has been released by human activity in the last 200 years. It is a function of how much coal, oil, and natural gas has been combusted. the Markets keep track of how much coal and oil and gas is bought and sold, and presumably used.
Global "Warming" could create some ice ages. some claim the Earth is "cooling" even now. Why are all these glaciers and polar ice caps melting so fast if that is the case? why has the growing season increased in most temperate regions if this is the case?
When I put a twelve pack of lukewarm beer in a cooler of ice and come back the next day, the average temperature of the beer has decreased. but half the ice has melted.
The East Anglia Emails primarily deal with collecting various measurements from various networks used over time. If the computer programmers write code with logic errors, it moves the data from disparate files into the master database with some errors in formatting or parsing in multiple data fields per record range. the East Anglia staff seem to be bitching most about re-varifying that the original records were uploaded into the master databases correctly. I can understand how Rush Limbaugh would have no idea what they are talking about.
He had been involved since the 70s in the promotion of information communications technology. The internet did not create itself. It took 50 years of government funding and contracts to various universities and telephone companies and other corporations. It took a few decades of ARPANET. Gore never claimed to have invented the internet.
The justification for alternative energy is - the much scarier and historically observed - antsy-ness governments and giant corporations and traders have over oil supplies.
The Global Warming issue is much less important.
Individuals tend to get hysterically pessimistic or hysterically optimistic when antsyness over oil is discussed. Aggregately, voters and higher-up cliques get hysterically aggressive in either case. Let's go "liberate Iraq". 3 trillion dollars. Chinese firms are buying oil rights, coal mines, and metal mines around the world: we'd better build more aircraft carriers and fighter jets: 1 trillion dollars. Better stimulate our economy: lower taxes and subsidize more sprawl.
Today the U.S. produces about as much oil as it produced in 1950. In 1950 scarcely any oil at all was imported. Trade was a small portion of GDP. economic "growth" was higher.
*************************
Chapter 2:
Unions haven't crippled the U.S. industrial base. Wall Street and politicians have crippled the U.S. industrial base. Monopoly industries invite Union accumulation of power. Anti-monopoly enforcement prevents unions from getting to strong.
Capital flows faster and easier across the United States than ever. and it has for decades. The big banks don't pour their money into plants and mills and factories in "right to work states" so much as they pour their money into shopping malls and sprawl and condos in the U.S., and factories and mills and plants in latin america and asia.
We're all NIMBYs to some degree. that's the point of living in Lakewood and not Cleveland. just let the kids with peanut allergies die out. jogging beside a road is equivalent to X amount of cigarettes.
I don't know of any politicians who have successfully and consistently achieved tariffs, imports, or quota ceilings. I don't know of any good politicians in the last 30 years. I don't know of any pro-good-business politicians or federal bureaucrats.
Most post-industrial economic growth essentially trickles down from increases in the costs of healthcare, and increases in the cost of education.
the "information age" essentially means that advances in production of most physical goods will approach practical patent-unenforcability faster. The income generating lifespan of patents will continue to decrease. so there will be increasing pressures to bid up the stock price, sell stock, and mandate obsolescence through lobbying and monopoly powers.
Historically, American economic "growth" has generally been higher when tariffs were higher, and when progressive income taxes were higher.
The greatest Social Engineering in the U.S. has been suburban sprawl, automobile addiction, and the subsequent oil "addiction". The greatest beneficiaries of this social engineering are more likely to be found marching in "tea parties". (I watched many of them drive in from out of town and park within a few blocks of the tax payer built Browns Stadium.) It is the most expensive social engineering program in America. in upfront costs, and then in spillover costs. Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of Americans got rich or wealthy enough building it and furnishing it. Thank the wealth redistribution programs.
Labor Unions make a strong case for wanting more. everybody wants the lifestyles marketed on television, movies, and advertising. It takes a lot more to be poor today than it used to. and a lot more to be middle class.
There is no libertarian history of the USA. There is simply an Abundance history of the USA. Government has always been big relative to the scope and scales of private enterprise. it just lagged behind a bit relative to the impact of new technology on civilization.
America has always been about the redistribution of wealth and resources. The colonies rebelled because they wanted the land. After the Revolution, Uncle Sam doled out a lot of land. About 95 percent of the contiguous continental united states. it was legit, I guess. Insiders got the early ins, and collected the resale or developed it.
*************************
CHAPTER 3:
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php
The East Anglia emails are all posted at the above link.
it is boring stuff to read. the details Scientists fret over.
So far each of them that I read do not indicate anything untoward.
The science of climate change seems much more valid than most of the economics i've encountered.
Please point out one email that is explicitly corrupt.
They are simply discussing which data sets to use, because multiple data tracking projects from around the world have been collected and compiled into the database. sometimes a weather measuring office in a particular area was moved to a new department in that area or renamed. it reads like they are mostly concerned about the text files having been parsed correctly when loaded into the database. and the formats of older databases translated correctly. Load old foxpro records into ACCESS: you'll see a lot of stuff screwed up.
Watch mythbusters on television. they talk a lot about statistical modeling: the boring parts of the show. many of us took statistics and physics in high school or college. do you remember how boring that was?
the climate guys seem more accurate than the wall street actuaries, judging by the stellar banking collapses.
The climate has been "changing" for the last 4.5 billion years. This is generally why very probable models of how significant carbon dioxide has been in driving weather patterns can be constructed. Scientists know more about climate and carbon dioxide than they know about quantum physics, astrophysics, and nuclear physics. in terms of the data they've had to work with and the conclusions they draw through rigorous statistical analysis.
Scientists have a pretty good idea of how much C02 has been released by human activity in the last 200 years. It is a function of how much coal, oil, and natural gas has been combusted. the Markets keep track of how much coal and oil and gas is bought and sold, and presumably used.
Global "Warming" could create some ice ages. some claim the Earth is "cooling" even now. Why are all these glaciers and polar ice caps melting so fast if that is the case? why has the growing season increased in most temperate regions if this is the case?
When I put a twelve pack of lukewarm beer in a cooler of ice and come back the next day, the average temperature of the beer has decreased. but half the ice has melted.
The East Anglia Emails primarily deal with collecting various measurements from various networks used over time. If the computer programmers write code with logic errors, it moves the data from disparate files into the master database with some errors in formatting or parsing in multiple data fields per record range. the East Anglia staff seem to be bitching most about re-varifying that the original records were uploaded into the master databases correctly. I can understand how Rush Limbaugh would have no idea what they are talking about.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Capital flows faster and easier across the United States than ever. and it has for decades. The big banks don't pour their money into plants and mills and factories in "right to work states" so much as they pour their money into shopping malls and sprawl and condos in the U.S., and factories and mills and plants in latin america and asia.
http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowc ... an-detroit
Before long, you'll be more likely to get an American-made car by buying an import brand instead of a Ford, General Motors, or Chrysler vehicle. New data show that for the first time ever, foreign-based carmakers are poised to build more vehicles in the United States than the Detroit 3.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Show me some facts...The big banks don't pour their money into plants and mills and factories in "right to work states"
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Jim DeVito
- Posts: 946
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:11 am
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Global Warming or not. We need to get on the Green tech boom. China is already on the bandwagon. If we don't act soon an invest in these industries we are once again going to spend the next decades buying tech from China. Just a thought...
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Hogwash... The Southern Automotive Corridor proves that manufacturers are pumping money into "right to work states".Capital flows faster and easier across the United States than ever. and it has for decades. The big banks don't pour their money into plants and mills and factories in "right to work states"
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Jim DeVito wrote:Global Warming or not. We need to get on the Green tech boom. China is already on the bandwagon. If we don't act soon an invest in these industries we are once again going to spend the next decades buying tech from China. Just a thought...
It must be cold really cold outside or at least in hell
.. I agree with Jim... http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 970512.htm
China Solar Panel Maker Sets First U.S. Plant
Suntech Power aims to boost its share of the U.S. market with a solar-panel manufacturing plant to be built in Arizona
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Charlie Page
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:31 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Stephen Eisel wrote:Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
http://bluelori.blogspot.com/2009/12/po ... ed-by.html
It’s funny how the left downplays the Climategate emails. Maybe it’s that “selective outrage” again.
There are some good clicky’s (in red) in that link. Took me a while to get through them. This is an excerpt from the "fraud" clicky.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/01/climat ... almia.html
Forbes wrote:One e-mail as recent as last month acknowledged that global temperatures plateaued in 1998, something that skeptics have been pointing out for years and warming warriors have been pooh-poohing. "The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment," the e-mail confessed. But instead of celebrating the good news that the planet may not ineluctably fry to a crisp, the e-mail continues with its gloom and doom, blaming an "inadequate observing system" for not picking up on the warming.
This wouldn't be such a big deal if other e-mails didn't show even worse malfeasance. "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e., from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith to hide the decline [of temperatures]," one said. To most people with normal IQs, the words "trick" and "hide" in the same sentence would suggest manipulation of data. But the brainiacs at Hadley claim that these are just standard colloquialism that scientists use to describe completely innocent operations.
Really? Then how do they explain this 2005 e-mail by Phil Jones, the director of the center, to the aforementioned Mike. "The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the U.K., I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone… We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind." The "two MMs" refers to Canadian researchers Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick. And--lo and behold--when one of them asked Jones for his data, what did he do? He hid behind the data protection act. But no, there is nothing premeditated here!
Why was Jones so afraid of the two MMs? Because they had debunked Mike's--or Michael Mann of Penn State University's--infamous "hockey stick" graph that supposedly offered proof positive that humans were warming the earth. It showed that global temperatures had remained flat for a millennium only to spike sharply in the 20th century following the industrial revolution. But McIntyre and McKitrick found that the innocent "tricks" that Mann was performing on the data were so riddled with methodological errors that even the IPCC was forced to remove the graph from its official reports.
I was going to sue her for defamation of character but then I realized I had no character – Charles Barkley
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Charlie Page
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:31 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Dustin James wrote:....which RC will undoubtedly expound on - usually citing Reagan and other non-Democrats.
Ryan - not one mention of Reagan in your lengthy response. I’m impressed with Dustin’s use of the Force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnjaUoR15dU
ryan costa wrote:When I put a twelve pack of lukewarm beer in a cooler of ice and come back the next day, the average temperature of the beer has decreased. but half the ice has melted.
Finally, a science experiment that I'd like to participate in. I'll help you test the temperature of the beer the next day.
I was going to sue her for defamation of character but then I realized I had no character – Charles Barkley
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Charlie Page
- Posts: 672
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:31 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Stephen Eisel wrote:Jim DeVito wrote:Global Warming or not. We need to get on the Green tech boom. China is already on the bandwagon. If we don't act soon an invest in these industries we are once again going to spend the next decades buying tech from China. Just a thought...
It must be cold really cold outside or at least in hell
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 970512.htm
China Solar Panel Maker Sets First U.S. Plant
Suntech Power aims to boost its share of the U.S. market with a solar-panel manufacturing plant to be built in Arizona
I agree with the both of you but I have to get ready to go to Light Up Lakewood!
I was going to sue her for defamation of character but then I realized I had no character – Charles Barkley
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ryan costa
- Posts: 2486
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
the East Anglia emails are not terribly significant. point out one of them.
Climate Change is not Global Warming. Climate change is a greater variance in dry spells, deluges, heat waves, and cold fronts.
Average Temperature is a nebulous measurement. Average of what? how many places measured how frequently?
automobiles are big ticket items. that are expensive to transport.
just last week i was reading a comparison of Pipe Cutters in Popular Mechanics. The factory and "brand" of the old name brand was bought out by some U.S. conglomerate. they promptly closed the plant and outsourced to China.
China doesn't need high taxes. the big firms are all co-owned by the state. they can move the revenue around. the markup on all those socks and underwear and movie toys can be applied to buy oil rights, rare earth metals mines, etc.
The green revolution as economic cornerstone is a fad. anything built here can be built more cheaply overseas. They'll rake in billions of dollars building stuff Stan Ovshinsky and company invented twenty years ago.
Do you make too much money? you can be replaced by appalachian mechanics and hacks or Indian engineers or Chinese machinists and physicians. keep those credentials up to date. most post-industrial growth in america trickles down from increases in the cost of education and healthcare. there will never be enough lawyers and cops and firemen and CPAs.
coal and oil burning in the last 200 years have yielded a 35 percent increase in atmospheric C02. a 35 percent increase is pretty significant. drink 35 percent more beer and you will heat up faster.
Climate Change is not Global Warming. Climate change is a greater variance in dry spells, deluges, heat waves, and cold fronts.
Average Temperature is a nebulous measurement. Average of what? how many places measured how frequently?
automobiles are big ticket items. that are expensive to transport.
just last week i was reading a comparison of Pipe Cutters in Popular Mechanics. The factory and "brand" of the old name brand was bought out by some U.S. conglomerate. they promptly closed the plant and outsourced to China.
China doesn't need high taxes. the big firms are all co-owned by the state. they can move the revenue around. the markup on all those socks and underwear and movie toys can be applied to buy oil rights, rare earth metals mines, etc.
The green revolution as economic cornerstone is a fad. anything built here can be built more cheaply overseas. They'll rake in billions of dollars building stuff Stan Ovshinsky and company invented twenty years ago.
Do you make too much money? you can be replaced by appalachian mechanics and hacks or Indian engineers or Chinese machinists and physicians. keep those credentials up to date. most post-industrial growth in america trickles down from increases in the cost of education and healthcare. there will never be enough lawyers and cops and firemen and CPAs.
coal and oil burning in the last 200 years have yielded a 35 percent increase in atmospheric C02. a 35 percent increase is pretty significant. drink 35 percent more beer and you will heat up faster.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: Poor Gore Global Warming Debunked by the Internet he created
Man has been using coal since the 2nd century A.D.