The Observation Deck

Good questions Jim, and like I mentioned earlier, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or a CPA, but I have been doing some research on local taxes.

Independence has a 2.00% city payroll tax and taxes homes at 1.57% of their market value.

Lakewood has a 2.00% city payroll tax and taxes homes at 2.48% of market value.

Independence gives full credit to residents who work in another city and live there, Lakewood gives half.

(I put this together a little over a year ago, so the numbers may skew slightly today)

So, for the average Lakewood homeowner, it costs ~$1000 - $1500 per year extra to own in Lakewood than it does in Independence, all things being equal (which they arent, of course). For a person making $50,000 per year, it costs an extra $500 to live in Lakewood and work somewhere else.

Obviously, to really standarize this, we'd need to look at numbers of jobs vs. numbers of residents, average salaries of employees, etc. But on its face, it seems to me that the costs of supporting a city with a higher ratio of residents to workers would have to be higher than the opposite. Workers dont need trash pickup, etc.....

There's pros and cons to each type of city. It's good that we have a forum such as yours to kick these things around.

Bob Mehosky wrote:What's wrong with promoting increasing the tax base through higher employment?

Whoever they hire pays taxes to Lakewood, and frankly, the more taxpayers that don't live in the city, the better it is for those of us that do - ask Independence how they like having all those office buildings on Rockside Road. More income, less drain on city services.

Bob

I hope you do not mind me pulling this out as it is something I always wonder about.

Is that true?

Independence has 480, and 271, and tons of space. So the example you use is correct,
but in a built out community like Lakewood, is the trade off always the same? If it
was a Cleveland Clinic 8 story building we could probably agree, the tax might be better. Of course in that scenario we loose on property taxes.

If it is a building that is like the three story Baily Building filled with phone solicitors
is it true?

While studying the effects of retail, during the WestEnd, I found the figures on benefits
to be so out of line it was amazing to what was promised. Higher crime figures, minimum
wage jobs, and the potential for decreasing the value of a neighborhood if not full were
pretty staggering. Like the casino debate, jobs and income sure, but what it does to
city services like police, health and human services is staggering.

When I look at the new Dunkin Doghnuts/Baskin Robbins I am glad to see them come in
especially to current retail space. But then it pains me as I see what appears to be the
drive through back next to residential, which will decrease value of those homes, and
eventually has the potential to erode the quiet neighborhood.

The Grow Lakewood Power Point underlines that office space is far better than retail
like the WestEnd was. But one still has to wonder if it is really valuable in Lakewood
at this point and time for a variety of reasons. The three biggest would be competition,
location, and collabortive software that makes offices unneeded.

Back in the days of the Visionary Alignment for Lakewood, we looked at retail, commercial,
and what Lakewood has almost always been a bedroom community. Which is the surer
bet for Lakewood, and what can be implemented the quickest. In all cases we came back
tothe VAL credo, CLEAN, SAFE, FUN. If a city is clean(streets/housing/parks), and if it
is safe(police/fire/businesses/walkability) and fun(entertainment, recreation) with a
good location it should be easier to accomplish here than anywhere outside of a very few cities in the region. This should be able to attract another 10,000 - 15,000 residents
which give us taxes, and makes all businesses more solvent, for more taxes.

No real answer, but while working with Cleveland City Council on the chicken law I
found out that city maintenance from least expensive to most expensive for what was brought in to maintain was; community gardens, residential, parks, commercial, retail, vacant property.

No real answer, your post had me wondering what is best for Lakewood.

.

Bob Mehosky wrote:It's good that we have a forum such as yours to kick these things around.

Bob

This forum is paid for by advertisers, and maintained by residents, and the
volunteer advisory board.

Jim Devito is the admin.*

We have always seen this as everyones.

No agenda, one equal seat for at a virtual table big enough for everyone willing
to take ownership of their thoughts, questions, dreams, visions and words.

* I would think many find it interesting that everyone running the paper,
and website now was unknown to most of my board and myself before
starting this project.
Mel Page - MAMA, LakewoodAlive, Friends of Madison Park, Junior Women's League, and more.
Margaret Brinich - LEAF Community, Kiwanis Key Club and others. (Heidi Hilty knew
Margaret for years)
Jim DeVito - Was running another Lakewood Forum, and came to realize that
the best way to serve Lakewood's needs is a 100% unbiased open central
forum using real names. We are all thankfull he came onboard.

FWIW


.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Bob Mehosky wrote:What's wrong with promoting increasing the tax base through higher employment?

Whoever they hire pays taxes to Lakewood, and frankly, the more taxpayers that don't live in the city, the better it is for those of us that do - ask Independence how they like having all those office buildings on Rockside Road. More income, less drain on city services.

When a City is a desirable place to live and do business, everyone wants to live here and do business here.
Perception is the greatest promotional asset, or in Lakewood recent past, liability, a city can have.

Having an engaged, invested taxpayer base is better for the City then having the money go to another locality.

City jobs are relatively good jobs and secure jobs. Having employees chose to live where they work shows others that the city is worth not just their investment, but other potential homebuyers and families investment also.

Some of Lakewood’s employees are bringing in 80,000.00+ a yr in income. Having those moneys spent here would be a great asset for local business, restaurants, bars, entertainment facilities, schools….. Its called reinvestment I believe.

Living in a community brings with it ………………

Pride - in their homes, in our schools, in our streets and in Lakewood as a whole
Community- understanding and be engagement and attunement with the needs of those they serve - ability to respond quickly to unforeseen need and or emergency…
Commitment - being a part of the City they serve- Having a stake in its success and or failure…
Investment- not merely in their homes, the state of education in the city, local businesses when they shop, dine out, seek entertainment….
Cohesion with other residents - community

These are the long term solutions Lakewood’s past always pursued and there by ensured for her future. Lakewoods future's (like her past) comes down to the only thing that matters in the end.

Desirability

Desirability to live here. Desirability to open a business here. Sustainability to be in busessness here. Busessness need customers to stay in business. People shop, buy, eat, drink, seek entertainment where it is most convenient, CLOSE TO HOME.

Again:
When a City is a desirable place to live and do business, everyone wants to live here and do business here.

The perception of Lakewood is the greatest promotional asset, or in Lakewood recent past, liability, this city can have.

Desirability

Without that, this City is doomed to continue down its current eroding and wrong path.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Bob Mehosky wrote:It's good that we have a forum such as yours to kick these things around.

Bob

This forum is paid for by advertisers, and maintained by residents, and the
volunteer advisory board.

Jim Devito is the admin.*

We have always seen this as everyones.

No agenda, one equal seat for at a virtual table big enough for everyone willing
to take ownership of their thoughts, questions, dreams, visions and words.

* I would think many find it interesting that everyone running the paper,
and website now was unknown to most of my board and myself before
starting this project.
Mel Page - MAMA, LakewoodAlive, Friends of Madison Park, Junior Women's League, and more.
Margaret Brinich - LEAF Community, Kiwanis Key Club and others. (Heidi Hilty knew
Margaret for years)
Jim DeVito - Was running another Lakewood Forum, and came to realize that
the best way to serve Lakewood's needs is a 100% unbiased open central
forum using real names. We are all thankfull he came onboard.

FWIW


.

Then bravo to all of them as well. If you want to make the world a little bit better, you have to be willing to roll up your sleeves sometimes.

Bob Mehosky wrote:Obviously, to really standarize this, we'd need to look at numbers of jobs vs. numbers of residents, average salaries of employees, etc. But on its face, it seems to me that the costs of supporting a city with a higher ratio of residents to workers would have to be higher than the opposite. Workers dont need trash pickup, etc.....

There's pros and cons to each type of city. It's good that we have a forum such as yours to kick these things around.

If the number of people working in Lakewood increases by 1,000 and each job paid $50,000 per year the City would collect and extra $750,000 a year. Each 3% raise given to City employees cost over $1,000,000 per year.

All other things being equal continuing current spending patterns will require adding 1,500 jobs per year for the next 10 years. I'm generally an optimist (until recently) but I don't see the City adding 15,000 jobs over the next 10 years.

People like to consider only the collection side of the equation rather than the spending side because it causes less trouble.

At the risk of causing trouble:

I'm still waiting for the politician with the courage to say 8% raises, $100,000 buyouts, $500,000 retirement bonus payments, gold plated health plans and retirement at 55 are not now and never have been affordable.

Bill, are those two comparable?

The employees get raises per their union contract. If 1,000 new workers were added to the city, that's $750k in revenue that the city didn't have before.

And actually, with your figures, that would $1M in revenue. The city tax rate is 2% - unless you were assuming some of those workers lived in the city.

Hi,
Mr. Ob, you said,

"Independence has 480, and 271, and tons of space. So the example you use is correct, but in a built out community like Lakewood, is the trade off always the same? "

Lakewood is only a built out community if the residents of Lakewood decide they want to limit themselves to Lakewood's current size. There was presented an excellent model for growing Lakewood by 26 acres. It could be more. I saw Independence move many more tons of dirt to make space usable around 480 and 77 than required for the Peninsula. Just people there had the vision and desire to do it.

Residents are by far the best "bang for the buck" when looking at increasing tax base. New high end neighborhoods (which the Peninsula would provide) would add upward pressure on the the home value for all of Lakewood while adding tax base for the schools and income tax revenue too. The creation of the Peninsula would be unique and limited and highly desirous even in the current market.

Donald Farris wrote:Residents are by far the best "bang for the buck" when looking at increasing tax base. New high end neighborhoods (which the Peninsula would provide) would add upward pressure on the the home value for all of Lakewood while adding tax base for the schools and income tax revenue too. The creation of the Peninsula would be unique and limited and highly desirous even in the current market.

Don

Way too advanced for...

Speaking to the choir here.

Did you watch Abu Dhabi GP today?

Reclaimed coastline/ocean.



http://www.yasmarinacircuit.com/en/content/19/about-ymc.html

It would have been so perfect.


.

Hi,
WOW! What a venue! Remember when they ran an F1 race in the USA? Just an amazing year for F1.

I would like to cover the F1 circuit for the LO. I'll do it for free! All you need to do is cover incidentals like airfare, lodging and food. Let me know soon though as I'll need to start booking flights. You may want to just let me use your corporate jet. Why don't you come too? You can be my cameraman.