The Observation Deck

Is more stimulus money coming to Lakewood via the Norfolk Southern railway?

Rail service is being proposed from Cleveland to Vermilion with possible train station(s) in Lakewood. Governor Strickland wants Federal Stimulus money for this West Shore Corridor project.

You have an opportunity voice your opinion and help shape this project at a public meeting.

A "Public Input Meeting" will be held on Thursday, June 11, 2009, at 6:00 P.M., St. Rose of Lima Church Hall, 11411 Detroit Avenue.

For more information, call Ken Prendergast at 216-288-4883 or email kenprendergast@allaboardohio.org

Bill Grulich

This would be a disaster for Lakewood.

I can't think of one good thing about another freeway through the City.

Yeah, light rail in Lakewood would be so horrible. I love my car, but I love light rail even more. If we ever want to start competing with other major cities and use less fossil fuels, we need to start getting serious about alternative transportation (as in install it and change our mindsets about actually using it).

Yeah, Valerie, I agree. Commuter rail has been absolutely horrible for New York and DC and their surrounding communities. The problem is, you can go somewhere without worrying about having to park your car. For example, imagine if every tom dick and harry could take the train to Belle Ave. and walk up to Rozi's, or Jo Ann's, without having to park their car. That would be truly destructive.

Love Light rail, and regular rail for that matter.

However the VAL had it running from the Flats to Sandusky/Put In Bay ferries.
Call it the Whiskey Train, and cut down on drunk drivers while making it worthwhile
for Lakewood families to get season passes at Cedar Point.

I would have to really look at "taking it to Rozi's and JoAnn's" until I knew how
often it runs, and how many need it.

I have always thought a city bus/vanline might be better, that is underwritten by
the businesses.

FWIW

the Callentine Plan (for what it's worth) - and yes, I did send this to RTA for consideration...

Loop the Red line: go west from the airport to Great Northern Mall turn NorthWest with stops at St.John Westshore Hospital, go North with Stop at Crocker Park, cross the highway and tie into existing line for return through all western suburbs and Lakewood (stops at West Clifton [Natures Bin], Andrews [Kaufman Park], Bunts Road, and 117th) then complete the loop at the West Blvd. Cuddell Station.

If you want to extend a commuter rail out to the island, then it can spur off the westward end of the loop.

just my two cents.

My 17-year-old daughter plays for a high level club soccer team, last Memorial Day weekend we took them to New Jersey for a college showcase tournament.

We did have one day with an early game, Sunday, so after we all took the train from New Brunswick to Penn Station in NYC. There were 28 of us, players and parents.

While we were waiting on the platform in New Brunswick, one of the 100 mph express trains from DC to NYC whizzed by. This is what Obama calls “high-speed rail,” and while it's technically not, it's a great step toward a vastly improved passenger rail network, because it uses existing track. We desperately need to get started on this. As Kunstler bemoans, right now we have a passenger rail system the Bulgarians would be ashamed of....

BTW 100 mph is pretty darn fast for a train especially when it is passing only 20 feet or so from you. WOOSH!!! It almost takes your breath away.

Here's a picture of some of the girls on board the train. It was very clean and comfortable....



And here's a picture of most of the team right outside Penn Station....



We only had about four hours to tour so we mostly walked from place to place. You can see the Empire State Building from right outside Penn Station. Times Square was closed to vehicles and there was a street fair taking place. I think it was the first time they closed Broadway and 7th Avenue, from 42nd to 48th. The girls loved the M&M store. We walked a bit of Central Park, then Rockefeller Plaza and Radio City Music Hall. Finally a quick bite at a NY deli, and back to Penn Station for the ride home. My point is: the city was absolutely alive with activity, even on a weekend. It wasn't dead like I bet downtown Cleveland was....

And even at 10 PM on a Sunday night, the train was packed. Many were returning to Philly from the Yankees/Phillies game that afternoon. NYC has obviously benefited greatly from rail accessibility, as has Philly and DC. I read an article in The Atlantic pretty recently that said the “super regions” like NYC/Philly/DC would fare much better as oil becomes pricey than isolated large cities will. Man, I would love to hop a train down to the Terminal Tower, and take an express down to Columbus to watch the Crew. And I bet the folks from Columbus would like to take a one-hour ride to Cleveland to watch the Tribe or maybe tour University Circle.

Perhaps other communities will benefit more from passenger rail than will Lakewood, because Lakewood is already close to downtown Cleveland and we can easily take a bus. But so what. Cleveland and all west side communities will benefit from easily-accessible passenger rail, and that can't help but benefit Lakewood residents. Plus, like it or not, motoring is going to become increasingly unaffordable as energy prices rise.

We need to get in front of this. We need to support the conversion of the Norfolk-Southern to passenger rail, and also the proposed “high speed” railway linking Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati and Dayton. If stimulus money has to be printed and spent, this is how it should be spent.

Tim Liston wrote:Perhaps other communities will benefit more from passenger rail than will Lakewood, because Lakewood is already close to downtown Cleveland and we can easily take a bus.

There is no perhaps about it. I have no problem with other communities benefiting more. I do have a problem with Lakewood not benefiting at all and being greatly harmed by this proposal.

Light rail is the panaceaticholygrail of the urban elite.

If light rail advocates have their way a State facing billion’s in deficits will starve other development alternatives for a religious experience. Light rail advocates tell us to forget lakefront development, forget shoreway development, forget revitalization of core cities, forget the problems caused by exurb expansion and climb on board.

Their argument boils down to this mystical belief: If only the people of Avon Lake and North Ridgeville could take the train to the ball game all of our problems will be solved.

Bill, you're wrong. It isnt a holy grail. It works. Furthermore, I dont see people in Avon and North ___ as the ones who would primarily use it. It would be people like me who already live in or near the urban core. I moved close to the city so I wouldnt need to use my car all that much. If I had a train to take me and my family to the game, take me to Tremont, I would use it. Having lived in or close in to cities with various modes of public trans, I used them more than I used the car because they were convenient and I preferred it to driving myself. There are already those of us who prefer that lifestyle who are living in Lakewood, West Park, Tremont, downtown, for those very reasons. If you offer yet another way to live urban oriented, not need a car to get everywhere, it is a win for stimulating more development along the route.

This would do more for revitalizing core cities than developer slapped condos on the West Shoreway. You're completely missing the point. And you are completely wrong about what development would work to do what. This isnt about a quaint experience for exurban lovers to take to the game. It's about making the inner core work better.

Tim already touched upon the energy issues facing us, so I won't touch that. Honestly, I think you would be happier living in a shack, writing a manifesto...... so you personally wouldn't need light rail anyway.

Valerie Molinski wrote:Bill, you're wrong. It isnt a holy grail. It works.

Northeast Ohio has no more residents than it did 30 years ago. The light rail plan will do nothing to attract people or jobs to the area. What it will do is encourage further development out West.

The whole underlying concept is flawed.

See this excerpt from EcoCitycleveland:

http://www.ecocitycleveland.org/transpo ... dates.html
“The main reason for considering this rail extension is the proposed Chagrin Highlands development of 600 acres of land owned by Cleveland and six southeast suburban communities, and the need to get Cleveland residents to the new jobs that will occur there. Based on the build-out of current plans over the next 25 years, the study projects a 50 percent increase in study area jobs (24,000 new jobs), where major employers like National City Bank, Office Max, and MBNA already have offices. “

The general idea is that the City will encourage jobs to locate outside of Cleveland in areas where there is a lot of vacant land. Then the City will spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build a light rail system so people living in Cleveland can take the train to their new suburban jobs.

What a hoot. Isn’t more likely that people will move to the jobs?

Notice anything else about the plan? Well, National City Bank is no more and Office Max is now an Illinois company with little presence in Cleveland. Rail lines are permanent fixtures serving an ever changing economic environment.

This plan will offer no benefit to the people of Lakewood.

Hi,
I'm so happy to read that light rail works. I'm doubly happy that we already have it with the rapid. We are already enjoying all those great benefits and we have a brand new rail station at W 117. I'm sure all you light rail advocates use the rapid everyday so I don't need to tell you anything about it's great benefits.

If there is going to be any additional rail activity it seems to me it would need to integrate into our existing rapid like as Mr. Callentine has suggested.

Additional rail traffic on the line between Clifton and Detroit would be a danger to the safety of Lakewood residents. Those tracks should be removed.

The bottom line is that a rail car carrying 40 people is going to be more efficient that 40 cars driving down Clifton. It has an initial capital cost, but with less people using the raods, it reduces road maintenance costs and energy expenditure. I think would be a great idea if there was light rail through Lakewood. I go to W 117th every day, but I have to use a car to get there or try to rely on buses, which I find just not that great in terms of being on predictable schedules.

If the argument is that it doesn't benefit Lakewood, I don't get that thought. Do you think if we rip up all the light rail, people who commute from far off suburbs will suddenly move to Lakewood to have a shorter drive? It's more likely they'd just leave the whole region if the car traffic becomes worse and worse.

It's a matter if you think the spending on highways is a wise long-term investment versus rail, I suppose.

Hi,
It's additionally the matter of Lakewood residents being regularly inconvenienced waiting for commuter trains to run through the heart of Lakewood. I HATE sitting on one of our many side streets waiting for a train to roll through. It's a danger at each street crossing. Does anyone know how many streets a train crosses at street level? The answer for the Rapid is zero. Add to that the danger to pedestrian traffic and the additional noise of a train through Lakewood and it's hard for me to see any benefit for Lakewood.

Didn't our Rep. Dennis K. fight and succeed in keeping the number of trains going through Lakewood to a minimum? Good job Dennis! Now, speak up and end this talk, please before a car load of kids gets killed running into a train. Use the Rapid lines!

Let those x-burbers sit on I90 instead of me (or anyone else) sitting on W117th (or any other north-south street in Lakewood) watching an empty train keep its schedule of every 30 minutes.

My husband went to the meeting last night. It's currently in feasibility study, but it is a question of light rail versus heavy rail at this time. This determination would also dictate which tracks and which route it would take. Norfolk Southern apparently expressed interest in actually running this commuter rail line as well.

It's also a chicken versus egg discussion too. Most commuter lines like this have spurred development (both residential and commercial) along its line. So do you route it to spur such development or try to service already developed areas.

Currently, it would appear that there would be one stop in Lakewood and again, dependent on the type of rail, it might or might not run on the existing track between detroit and clifton. It would have to take the other track that the freight trains do.

More info to come. That's just boiled down in its simplest terms.

And Bill, the site you reference is NOT this proposal. Nice try though.

Did you know that Lakewood is the most densely populated area between NYC and Chicago curently? As a whole (region), we may have not picked up any more population in recent years. I'm just tired of the negativity and the 'why we can't's that are just going to cause more people to move out. If we are going to keep arguing why we cannot move forward as a region, then yes, we are lost and there will be no one to ride the trains.