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Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:52 pm
by Bill Call
Michael Barone nails it:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opini ... 69827.html
If I forget or forgot an "s" here it is:
"s"
no match
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:59 pm
by ryan costa
our Big Three are no match for the industrial nationalism and lower executive pay of the Japanese. Some mutual loyalty between management and workers.
given the freedom of cheap fuel, cheap land, and subsidized big box sprawl, the big Three responded with big cars that wear out faster for 60 years. Unions got their juice from great depression-WWII veterans unafraid to picket or strike: quality of life keeps going down so they got their demands for money to stay further away.
Henry Ford was famous for not caring about corporate dividends, not doing much auditing, not relying on bonds, and continuing to raise the wages of his workers above his competition. if the fundamentals have changed so much since then, the changes in fundamentals are the opposite of improvement.
f
Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:43 am
by Bill Call
Answer this question and you will understand the Obama administration:
What objective criteria was used to determine which dealerships were closed and why won't they make the criteria public?
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:28 am
by Tim Liston
Well Bill the looting of those who earn and save and invest is now in full stride....
Fiat Said to Buy Chrysler Assets Today to Form New Automaker (click here)The new company, Chrysler Group LLC, will be owned 20 percent by Turin, Italy-based Fiat, 9.85 percent by the U.S., 2.46 percent by Canada and 67.69 percent by a United Auto Workers union retiree health care trust fund.
The SECURED bondholders got NONE of the “good” Chrysler. They are left with the entrails, and maybe 2-3 cents on the dollar. By law these bondholders would probably own most if not all of the good Chrysler. That was the deal they made, in black and white, when they invested their money in Chrysler bonds.
Folks, Bill is right. This is fascism. Black letter law no longer matters and is not being upheld by any of the three branches of our government. This does not bode well for our nation. I wonder what's next. What I fear is that Chrysler and GM are small potatoes....
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:52 am
by Jim DeVito
Chrysler should have failed. There assets should have been liquidated to pay off ALL the stake holders. Lots of people would lose there jobs. However lots of people are losing their jobs now. The manufacturing capacity of Chrysler would have been bought by other titians of industry. The same workers who are keeping their jobs now would re up their skill sets to work in their old plants making new things like wind turbines, nuclear power plants, and other american things like guns, ammo. Holy run on sentence batman!!
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:28 am
by Charlie Page
Tim Liston wrote:The new company, Chrysler Group LLC, will be owned 20 percent by Turin, Italy-based Fiat, 9.85 percent by the U.S., 2.46 percent by Canada and 67.69 percent by a United Auto Workers union retiree health care trust fund.
Folks, Bill is right. This is fascism.
This isn't fascism, it's a payback to unions for the hundreds of millions in $upport to Obama and other dems. A dangerous precedent has been set by allowing unsecured creditors ahead of secured creditors. Who wants to step in as a secured creditor? It doesn't mean anything anymore.
Isn't hope and change great?
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:44 pm
by ryan costa
what is a secured creditor and an unsecured creditor?
what does each contribute? the mere existence of this distinction should prevent any creditor from contributing anything in an "unsecured status".
how do you liquidate the assets of a major automobile company in such a way that they remain productive?
the byzantine labor laws and heavy taxes of Italy should not be producing an automobile manufacturer in better shape than Chrysler. yet that is the case.
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:59 pm
by Brian Pedaci
I thought the bondholders had an option to get an equity stake and turned it down, looking for a better deal? Also, the estimate that I read was that they'd get back something like 29 cents on the dollar for their investment, which is likely more than the US Taxpayer will.
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:28 pm
by ryan costa
I suspect pretty much the exact same thing with Chrysler would be happening if McCain or Huckabee or that other front runner nominee were President today. it's that whole too-big-to-fail thing.
It was easier to let the steel industry collapse 10 years ago. steel isn't really a brand name.
autoplants don't just manufacture cars. they manufacture brand. america defines itself by its automobile use. it would hurt national self-esteem to sell all chryslers plants piece by piece to Kia, toyota, honda, suzuki, yamaha, Sony, vw, bmw....
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:54 am
by Bill Call
ryan costa wrote:I suspect pretty much the exact same thing with Chrysler would be happening if McCain or Huckabee or that other front runner nominee were President today. it's that whole too-big-to-fail thing.
It was easier to let the steel industry collapse 10 years ago. steel isn't really a brand name.
autoplants don't just manufacture cars. they manufacture brand. america defines itself by its automobile use. it would hurt national self-esteem to sell all chryslers plants piece by piece to Kia, toyota, honda, suzuki, yamaha, Sony, vw, bmw....
You might enjoy this quote from a Robert Heinlein novel written in the 1950's:
The job I found was crushing new ground limousines so that they could be shipped back to Pittsburgh as scrap. Cadillacs, Chryslers, Eisenhowers, Lincolns - all sort of great big, new powerful turbobuggies without a kilometer on their clocks. Drive'em between the jaws, then crunch! smash! crash! - scrap iron for blast furnaces.
It hurt me at first since I was riding the ways to work and didn't own so much as a Grav-Jumper. I expressed my opinion of it almost lost my job....until the shift boss remembered I was a Sleeper and really didn't understand.
"It's a simple matter of economics, son. These are surplus cars the government has accepted as security against price-support loans. They're two years old now and then can never be sold....so the government junks them and sells them back to the steel industry.
You can't run a blast furnace just on ore; you have to scrap iron as well. You ought to know that even if you are a Sleeper. Matter of fact with high-grade ore so scarce, there’s more and more demand for scrap. The steel industry needs these cars."
"But why build them in the first place if they can't be sold? It seems wasteful."
"It just seems wasteful. You want to throw people out of work? You want to run down their standard of living?"
"Well why not ship them abroad? It seems to me they could get more for them on the open market abroad then they are worth as scrap."
"What! and ruin the export market? Besides, if we started dumping cars abroad everybody we'd get everyone sore at us - Japan, France, Germany, Great Asia, everybody. What are you aiming to do? Start a war?"
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:14 am
by ryan costa
I suspect a Mitt Romney Administration would have ended up giving Chrysler the same deal. They would have just used different words to describe it. Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and that other ex-junkie would have ended up using different words to describe it. This is opposition for the sake of identity.
According to legend, In elections for national offices in 1936, 1938, and 1940 it was popular for Republicans to accuse Roosevelt and his allies of leading us into war. when the Lend-Lease act and all the other support we threw the allies before formally entering the war picked up, Republicans accused Roosevelt of doing it wrong.
Here is my prediction for what will happen 10 to 16 years from now. The U.S. will trick itself into invading Iran or Ecuador or Columbia or Venezuela or Nigeria. The President will make many speeches about achieving "energy independence" and "independence from foreign oil". Lockheed-Martin and Boeing will probably have technically collapsed the same way Chrysler has by then, but the details will be white-washed and funding will pour in.
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:56 am
by Bill Call
Brian Pedaci wrote:I thought the bondholders had an option to get an equity stake and turned it down, looking for a better deal? Also, the estimate that I read was that they'd get back something like 29 cents on the dollar for their investment, which is likely more than the US Taxpayer will.
The secured lenders were not offered any ownership interest.
Here is a good explanation of the process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3YPnTwdeto
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:33 am
by Charlie Page
That was a good explanation of how things went down at Chyrsler.
Obama picked the winner and loser.
The unions were made whole while the rest of us were hung out to dry. Nice payback to the unions.
Isn't hope and change great!
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:35 pm
by Brian Pedaci
Eh, maybe I got GM and Chrysler confused.
Edit: Nope, I didn't. The Chrysler bondholders were originally offered a
35% stake in return for forgiving 5.9B in debt. They refused. The bondholders counteroffered with a 2.5B forgiveness in return for a 40% equity stake. This counteroffer did not meet the Treasury requirements for debt retirement that would be necessary to release additional loan money.
Now, if you want to argue that the Chrysler (or the Obama administration) was negligent in not continuing good-faith negotiations with the bondholders after that counteroffer, I wouldn't offer much argument. But I did want to make sure that the narrative was as complete as possible. There were options on the table - they didn't get frozen out completely from the start. They chose their own destiny to some extent. There were no guarantees that by forcing Chrysler through standard Chapter 11 bankruptcy they'd recoup anything close to their original investment anyway.
Re: Obama's Fascist State And The Chrysler Bankruptcy
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:34 pm
by Valerie Molinski
The entire industry, and in some ways, the entire U.S. economy, was riding on the survival of GM and Chrysler, says Ford Motor Co executive chairman Bill Ford, Jr. "It would have been so catastrophic to have a supply-base meltdown because it would have brought down all the auto manufacturers and frankly some other industries as well," Ford told CNBC TV according to an Automotive News report.
A cascading chain of bankruptcies was one of the primary fears of an unassisted GM or Chrysler bankruptcy. Because so many companies rely on GM and Chrysler to purchase their parts, and because there's no easy replacement outlet for those parts, there's no way for the supplier base to survive without them.
http://www.motorauthority.com/ford-government-loans-to-chrysler-gm-saved-the-industry.html