The Observation Deck

We simply cannot turn our collective heads and look the other way, and have any reason to believe we are leaders in the world.

I would have to say is one thing we can now see is just how immoral and corrupt the last crew was.

Religious Right!

I have to think the man would call them the Religious Wrong.


FWIW


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Jim O'Bryan wrote:We simply cannot turn our collective heads and look the other way, and have any reason to believe we are leaders in the world.

You and I agree on this one:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/ap ... war-crime/

President Clinton knowly ordered the murder of Serbian civilians and should be tried for his crimes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If ANYONE has EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF PROOF that the previous administration has done anything illegal. Then, by all means, lets get the trial started.

If, as I suspect, this is just another round of legal manuevering and word play, then just drop it please.

I'm getting very tired of hearing the allegations, the innuendos and the suspicions. If someone can set the record straight one way or another, GREAT, if not, what is the benefit of all this?

Jim, It is BECAUSE we understand that we are imperfect that we seek guidance in our faith. And it is because so many of us openly afirmation our humility that this country IS a world leader in morality.

Hi,
Want to talk about morals? Please watch these 2 videos: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/22/shepard-smith-torture_n_190350.html

To his credit Shep Smith gets it. America should not torture. For any reason!

Don/Bret/Bill

I agree with all three of you.

Bill, I would also throw in any casualties from the baby food factory bombing.

NO ONE SHOULD EVER GET A FREE RIDE ON THIS.

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Donald Farris wrote:America should not torture. For any reason!

So how do you propose getting information from captured terrorists? "Pretty please with sugar on top" won't work.

Charlie Page wrote:

Donald Farris wrote:America should not torture. For any reason!

So how do you propose getting information from captured terrorists? "Pretty please with sugar on top" won't work.

Charlie

Actually it is coming to the surface that most of the information they got from Sheikh Mohammed came before any of the torture started.

That most information coming out of Gitmo came from when they allowed them to practice their religion, and fed the properly.

FWIW


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After all this. We still can't find one old guy in a cave... Assuming he has not been dead this whole time under building somewhere.

That is how effective torture is.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... hoice.html

Andrew Sullivan has been all over this issue, from every angle. I was personally against prosecutions of anyone--that is, until Dick Cheney started his little media campaign telling everyone that Barack Obama is endangering our safety.

Now Im not so sure. I do think there should be a dispassionate inquiry, without a lot of moralizing and posturing. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we were flying blind, with no intelligence, and reason to believe that we were going to be hit again. Cheney and crew panicked.

The information should come out and be held up to light. And we should call Cheney's bluff and release all the info, including stuff that (purportedly) describes how torure produced credible information. Personally, I doubt it--and the value of that information would still need to be weighed against all the damage that use of these methods has inflicted in other ways on our cause. But that''s what we need to know, and should be part of any inquiry---what worked? what did, or is, keeping us safe? what didnt work?

And, absolutely, no one should be spared. Pelosi. Clinton and the pharmaceutical plant bombing.

While in would certainly be better if ever nation/religion/political point of view followed the Golden Rule, it seems to me that most of them have probably fallen short of their ideals. (from time to time)

I'm not sure that you can cite one particular group over another as being particularly villianous, excepting those groups that commited obvious mass genocidal actions in history.
Nations (as well as other groups) probably try to follow the rules of civility as much as possible, these days, but in emergencies it would seem that all bets are off regarding proper conduct regarding the disputation of war or other vital information.

That's why (at least to me) that there's so much hair-splitting over what may or may not constitute "torture" or "preemptive actions".

Most entities (and even individuals) will tend to self-preserve anyway they can. If they have to get information in order to survive or to keep from being hurt, they will generally do so.

In war, the winners often try to make, or justify the rules, as well.. Perspective is everything. Nearly every nation/people/religious faith can cite persecution of one kind from others in their histories.

It's their PROSecutions that they so often seem to forget.

That's Political Science, for 'ya!

Back to the banjo...

Mark Moran wrote:And, absolutely, no one should be spared. Pelosi. Clinton and the pharmaceutical plant bombing.

Mark

I am wondering how you got to possibly letting off the admin that completely perverted everything. To going back to Clinton for bombing the baby food factory?

To my knowledge no one was killed in that. But I would say put the guy on trial with the rest. Pelosi for sure. But also it has to be troubling to find out they were torturing these people to make them say they were responsible for 911. When they had nothing to do with it.

FWIW


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Jim,

I dont know how I got there either. It doesnt make any sense.

I wrote an editorial for LO a year or two ago about the torture issue, so Im on record with my outrage about it. But Ive been unsure of a "war crimes" trial with prosecutions and convictions and jail time, etc.--and my conflictedness about it muddied my thinking as I was writing that response. It would be too divisive, too politicized, and would muddy up the problems of an Obama Administration I am really rooting for, and which already has enough problems to deal with.

I like the idea of a truth commission--a la the south african commission on apartheid--whose goal was simply to air everything out. This is what they did, this is why they did it ---everyone was panic stricken--it either did or did not produce reliable information. And it would be nice--but a pipe dream--to get a little accountability from Cheney, et. al. To hear them say, yes we overreacted, we panicked, and we perverted justice and ended up hurting the American cause more than helping it. Fat chance of that.

But then, it certainly shouldn't exclude Dems like Pelosi who were in the know. And then where do you stop?

Get the DVD series "24" and watch all of it.

No government is perfect, no bad guys are perfect. You have a nuclear bomb ticking somewhere in Cleveland brought in on a frigate from Canada. You have some leads, but time is short. Quick where's your playbook? What country do you want to impress at THIS particular time about being a good sport?

Think about it. We are safe as long as evil people don't know what we'll do. If we tell them our inner workings, how does that protect and defend us? Should the findings of every terrorist act that we thwarted become public knowledge? If so, replace the military arsenal with paint ball guns, bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Fiction is now imitating life.

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Whoops, fiction has aways imitated life. It's just getting a lot scarier and a lot higher stakes for stupid decisions.

(Miss that edit button)

Mark

This will be hard for many people to think of, but you must look at the body of the work, to really get a sense of the CRIME we went through and were nearly ruined over.

I know it would take too long, but try to see the snippets of the Bush Administration.

If you cannot see the larger picture, then I am not sure what to say or do.

Before the election, talking of going into Iraq, needing something big to happen, the move to make all of the papers from this administration exempt from historical eyes for an additional 50 years. The massive amount of secret documents they created before 911 and after. The use of lawyers to redefine, everything from torture to nature.

How can anyone just turn a blind eye.

We do not own the world, we are just neighbors. We used to have somewhat of a moral high ground, that is gone.

We as Americans need to understand, we as Americans have to prove to the World we understand we are not above the law.

We must come clean.

If that means going back to Clinton, let go. If that means we lose half of the Democrats, let's go.

We are better then this.

peace


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