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Fuzzy Math is Alive and Well....

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:38 am
by Tim Liston
There was an article in the Plain Dealer this morning, saying that $750,000,000 dollars spent on parks would create 30,000 jobs. Click here.

I know that lots of zeros blows up most calculators, but this means that each $25,000 creates one job. I'm not sure how that can possibly be. If by a "job" you mean something more or less permanent, I think it will create closer to 300 jobs.

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:56 am
by Charlie Page
Does anyone know any kind of standard definition or calculation of a “job createdâ€

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:36 pm
by Dustin James
Chicago Tribune 1934 cartoon. The Plan of Action (lower left) is interesting ;)

http://tiny.cc/3gNJe

.

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:42 pm
by Brian Pedaci
Yeah, funny how that all came true, isn't it?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:29 pm
by Charlie Page
Here is the response I recieved from the BLS:

Mr. Page,

The Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey (JOLTS,
http://www.bls.gov/jlt) and the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS,
http://www.bls.gov/) do not publish or have a formal definition for "job creation".

I would suggest contacting the publisher of the "job creation" data you are interested in. Organizations that project job creation should have a formal definition and methodology for their estimates.

Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.

Mark deWolf
BLS/JOLTS


I guess every politician has their own formula for the calculation or definition of a "job created".

Let the fuzzy math continue :roll:

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:56 am
by Tim Liston
I reviewed the press releases put out by the DOI and could not find any reference to a specific number of jobs. So I just sent this email off to the author of the PD article....

Hello Joan....

Hey I have a question about the article you posted that reviewed the $750 million to be spend by the DOI on our national parks. This article says that 30,000 jobs will be created. I have reviewed the DOI releases I could find and did not see that figure mentioned. Can you tell me who it is that suggests such a level of job creation? Or how that figure was derived?

Thanks Joan....

Tim Liston
PD subscriber


I will let you know what I hear back. By the way the DOI release says that the $7 million "will be spent in the first phase of renovating" Perry's monument. The PD article says that the money will "help fix" the monument. Maybe the rest of the money needed to fix the monument will create some of those 30,000 jobs. I wonder how much that is, and how much of the rest of the $750 million will not complete the projects they begin.

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:48 pm
by Stephen Calhoun
The discipline you're looking for quantification data or the underlying formula(s) in is called, Labor Economics, a subset of Political Economy. A classic text is by Cahuc and Zylberburg (sp?).

There is a Journal of Labor Economics, (Univ. Chicago Pr)
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/jole/current

+

http://econpapers.repec.org/

Etc..

Re: Fuzzy Math is Alive and Well....

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:35 am
by Tim Liston
Fuzzy Math appears to be really hitting its stride now....

No longer is it about how many jobs are being saved. Now it's about how many jobs are being “saved or created.”

A couple days ago we were told by the Obama administration that so far, the $800,000,000,000 stimulus package has “saved or created” 150,000 jobs, and that another 600,000 jobs would be “saved or created” this year.

I wonder who measures how many jobs are being “saved.” And I wonder how you make such claims, when since the stimulus package was passed, 1.5 million people have lost their jobs.

Re: Fuzzy Math is Alive and Well....

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:03 am
by dl meckes
Tim, nobody loses a job.

Jobs are shed.

Re: Fuzzy Math is Alive and Well....

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:24 am
by Charlie Page
Tony Fratto is envious.

Mr. Fratto was a colleague of mine in the Bush administration, and as a senior member of the White House communications shop, he knows just how difficult it can be to deal with a press corps skeptical about presidential economic claims. It now appears, however, that Mr. Fratto's problem was that he simply lacked the magic words -- jobs "saved or created."

"Saved or created" has become the signature phrase for Barack Obama as he describes what his stimulus is doing for American jobs. His latest invocation came yesterday, when the president declared that the stimulus had already saved or created at least 150,000 American jobs -- and announced he was ramping up some of the stimulus spending so he could "save or create" an additional 600,000 jobs this summer. These numbers come in the context of an earlier Obama promise that his recovery plan will "save or create three to four million jobs over the next two years."

Mr. Fratto sees a double standard at play. "We would never have used a formula like 'save or create,'" he tells me. "To begin with, the number is pure fiction -- the administration has no way to measure how many jobs are actually being 'saved.' And if we had tried to use something this flimsy, the press would never have let us get away with it."

Of course, the inability to measure Mr. Obama's jobs formula is part of its attraction. Never mind that no one -- not the Labor Department, not the Treasury, not the Bureau of Labor Statistics -- actually measures "jobs saved." As the New York Times delicately reports, Mr. Obama's jobs claims are "based on macroeconomic estimates, not an actual counting of jobs." Nice work if you can get away with it.

And get away with it he has. However dubious it may be as an economic measure, as a political formula "save or create" allows the president to invoke numbers that convey an illusion of precision. Harvard economist and former Bush economic adviser Greg Mankiw calls it a "non-measurable metric." And on his blog, he acknowledges the political attraction.

"The expression 'create or save,' which has been used regularly by the President and his economic team, is an act of political genius," writes Mr. Mankiw. "You can measure how many jobs are created between two points in time. But there is no way to measure how many jobs are saved. Even if things get much, much worse, the President can say that there would have been 4 million fewer jobs without the stimulus."

Mr. Obama's comments yesterday are a perfect illustration of just such a claim. In the months since Congress approved the stimulus, our economy has lost nearly 1.6 million jobs and unemployment has hit 9.4%. Invoke the magic words, however, and -- presto! -- you have the president claiming he has "saved or created" 150,000 jobs. It all makes for a much nicer spin, and helps you forget this is the same team that only a few months ago promised us that passing the stimulus would prevent unemployment from rising over 8%.

It's not only former Bush staffers such as Messrs. Fratto and Mankiw who have noted the political convenience here. During a March hearing of the Senate Finance Committee, Chairman Max Baucus challenged Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on the formula.

"You created a situation where you cannot be wrong," said the Montana Democrat. "If the economy loses two million jobs over the next few years, you can say yes, but it would've lost 5.5 million jobs. If we create a million jobs, you can say, well, it would have lost 2.5 million jobs. You've given yourself complete leverage where you cannot be wrong, because you can take any scenario and make yourself look correct."

Now, something's wrong when the president invokes a formula that makes it impossible for him to be wrong and it goes largely unchallenged. It's true that almost any government spending will create some jobs and save others. But as Milton Friedman once pointed out, that doesn't tell you much: The government, after all, can create jobs by hiring people to dig holes and fill them in.

If the "saved or created" formula looks brilliant, it's only because Mr. Obama and his team are not being called on their claims. And don't expect much to change. So long as the news continues to repeat the administration's line that the stimulus has already "saved or created" 150,000 jobs over a time period when the U.S. economy suffered an overall job loss 10 times that number, the White House would be insane to give up a formula that allows them to spin job losses into jobs saved.

"You would think that any self-respecting White House press corps would show some of the same skepticism toward President Obama's jobs claims that they did toward President Bush's tax cuts," says Mr. Fratto. "But I'm still waiting."


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124451592762396883.html

Re: Fuzzy Math is Alive and Well....

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:52 pm
by ryan costa
what is minimum wage these days? 6 or 7 dollars an hour. that is less than 20 grand a year. so, if the reaganistas are to believed the big park service jobs will germinate more private-sector entrepeneur type jobs.