The Observation Deck

This is from a Visionary Alignment Thread and drifted...

Joan Roberts wrote:There are about 500,000 business categories that have employees, and only a few of them involve cash regsiters

I believe both Mr Juris and I have gone to great lengths to point out that retail is NOT the be-all and end-all of commercial development.

Somewhere there's a middle ground between Marysville (wholly subsidized by Honda) and what we have now in Lakewood (wholly subsidized by working stiffs)

Please stop re-fighting the West End battle.

Joan

You are killing me. Give me examples and how it will impact the problem you are talking about. The problem is build out, you have to build out a lot to even make a dent. I am not opposed to business, I am against business for business sake, something to do, or business that subtracts not adds to Lakewood and it's bottom line.

Any monkey take take a field, and put up a building and make more money. It becomes much tougher when you look at the big picture, and the current bottom line. when you remove a family of five for a parking lot, factory, fullfilment zone, machine shop, slag factory or prison the space has to do more than create tax, and a low paying job. You just removed 5 clients from Regos, Burger King, Marcs, Reagel Beagel, School System, Geigers. Add in the volatility of the markets, and there is one thing that leaps off the page, something humans need, and like.

To return to hell, the last brain child by a good supporter of the project and now working as a developer said, it would have placed us about $12,000,000 in debt right now! It is this comment that makes me take massive changes to the complexion and fabric of the city so seriously.

You have not mentioned one thing that makes sense as far as the build out? You seem to think businesses are not residents? So it is OK for the building next to you to pay taxes but you should not carry a fair burden? It is OK to ask other to move out and make room for business to reduce your taxes, but... You have to excuse me as an old hippie, I respect everyone's right to live in this city if they want. I also respect their right to sell. Before I asked thirty neighbors to move out to reduce my taxes I would move to a house I could afford.

Finally let me clarify as you seem to be set for selective memory.

Leveling the Beck for office or retail - for it
Leveling or reusing McKinley for taxable reasons - for it.
Another 1 or 2 gold coast apartments for it
Build out of light industry on Berea Road - for it
Summers Rubber moving to Lakewood - for it
Ferry Cap and Screw moving into Lake Erie Screw - for it
Aldi's and build out on W117 - for it
Cliffs - For it
Rosewood - for it
Rockport - for it
Oh yeah WestEnd in the original format - FOR IT

Paint as you will, but when I gamble with real money and real people's lives I want to KNOW it will work, not hope. I would always rather live next to a person than a factory.

(Never mentioned retail)


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Chris Trapp wrote:Shawn & Joan,
I agree wholeheartedly with your views on the need for something other than residents to pay the bills.

Do you know how weird it is seeing the names of three people that recently chose Lakewood for their homes, now feel there is a need to change it.

Reminds me of husbands and wives that upon I Do immediately start trying to change them into the people they never dated or would have married.

Again I am not against change, I just noticed how surreal it was.

If you can work the math, I am all ears.

To add to my list of things I was for...

A university - for it
Revamping Detroit - for it
Two business groups - for it
paying for businesses moving out of homes into storefronts - for it
Applebees where the Beck is - for it
24 hour ihop - for it
parking lot paid for by owner - for it
hospital expansion - for it
walgreens - could care less
The light industry company I am looking at starting in Lakewood - for it
Chris Trapp's Compost Heap on Madison - I guess as the lot is vacant

But if it all happened tomorrow, our taxes will still go up.

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Charyn Compeau wrote:And if I am misunderstanding the central themes - I hope someone will (gently) correct me.

Peace,
Charyn

Charyn

I moved my responses to here because someone mentioned I should not disagree with answers under questions I ask. Which seemed fair enough to me.

Joan had seem to think I was against businesses and/or that when I heard business the only thing I thought of was retail and low end jobs. I was merely trying to point out I am not locked into either thought process.

My problem, before I ask Charyn, Joan, Shawn or Chris to move so that I can pay less taxes(something I could never personally do anyway), I want to make sure it is going to do what I hoped it would.

To underline the key word - build out.

Cleveland has thousands of acres sitting vacant, River, Westlake, Bay have hundreds maybe. Lakewood might have twenty, that sits next to Birdtown (Birdville if you are using a GPS while reading this).

So it becomes very tough, as we just witnessed by the Edwards parking lot debacle. A bar needs more parking, an owner seeks help from the city to provide that tenant with more parking. The city spends $150,000 to build the lot, that repays Lakewood $2,500 a year. It makes no sense and hurts the city. The city backs out an allows the landowner to do it. Even when you remove the $150,000 it still hurts the city financially. We loose on taxes from the property, from the families that would have lived there, and in the end all businesses in Lakewood looses from 4-20 potential clients. This makes it really tough to add to the fabric of Lakewood without destroying the integrity of the cloth.

While some think I am the most arrogant SOB in town, I am not arrogant enough to ask you to move to reduce my taxes by $1.00, $5.00 even $100.

That's the simple part of this equation of life in Lakewood. So let's peel another layer off the onion. How many people that live in Lakewood right now want to live next to the mall, factory, office building, argon chamber that Chris, Shawn, Joan and other want to build? I have to think living next to a factory does nothing to increase quality of life, or property values of those we blessed with it. So we have declining property values, homes impossible to sell, and so the next area for the next factory or orgon chamber. Commercial build out in a small "bedroom" community is a cancer, not a cure.

OK, lets peel another layer off. With more transit people going through the area most times crimes, traffic, and city services begin to get maxed out. so taxes or costs continue to rise. This would be like George Bush giving us back a Pepsi a day in tax refunds, while oil and pharmaceuticals go up 200% The refund was merely a mirage.

Believe me I wish there was some magic bullet that would cure these ills. But the economy of life and the USA will just not allow it to happen, at least not in Lakewood on a level that truly makes a difference.

We have many examples that show us how tough City Hall's job is in the Planning Department.

So I ask Chris, Joan, Shawn, and whoever think this will help to tell us the plan, let's run the numbers and see if it really makes sense. If it does I am all for it, if it is just change for the sake of change, forget it. Maybe we could get a list of the residents you have decided to push out of Lakewood to reduce your taxes. I would love to put faces to the numbers.

We have a proven history in Lakewood of ways to reduce taxes, get more business for local businesses, and add to the cloth. Gold Coast Condos, why is everyone so afraid of this topic? Look at the homes on the front Winton Place's property. They have gone up in value at the same rate as the property around them. They sell very quickly when on the market. Would it be the same if that was a factory or mall? I think not.

But if we work together, there are even easier ways to reduce our taxes, but it does take more work than just complaining. We can work to fill our storefronts, we can work to fill our homes and rentals, and it is as easy as the one thing Joan assured me would never work. BUILD THE BRAND. Let people know Lakewood is a fun, safe clean place, with schools, parks, water. A place in the middle of 10 malls, 100 restaurants, yet quiet streets and homes, where neighbors not only respect you but join with you when asked. The nature of the city is energized, intelligent, and artistic. If you want to join, join, if you want to stay home, stay home in your quiet, safe house.

To me, in my simple mind the equation is easy. Humans always need affordable places to live and fresh water. No guess work required.


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Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Chris Trapp wrote:Shawn & Joan,
I agree wholeheartedly with your views on the need for something other than residents to pay the bills.

Do you know how weird it is seeing the names of three people that recently chose Lakewood for their homes, now feel there is a need to change it.

Actually I've yet to meet Joan but I guess for Chris (who I have met) and I, it is "weird" to find 2 relatively young people who are new to a city and willing to spend the time considering how their new"ish" hometown is doing and put some thought to where they would like it to go. What I think is totally normal is having new or veteran residents sit around and regardless of if their city is booming circa Solon in the 90's or declining (insert city here), have no opinion or concern about their surroundings. So thank you Jim, that is my new favorite compliment.
I continue to find it interesting how varied the responses to a suggestion to increase business interest in Lakewood have been. Bearing in mind that I have yet to provide any real plan of what it may look like. Let me draw an example, Dad says "hey kids, let's go on vacation. Looks like we need one. You tell me where and we'll look into it." Response from the family is "I'm busy. I'll miss my friends. I hated the last one. I'd rather just play in the backyard. I'll miss my soap operas. It might rain and that would suck." Do you think that based on those responses there's going to be any real effort to go further or offer again?
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Mine are no better than anyone elses unless they fill a need that others identify. For someone that just moved here, and to go a step further moved here because I had an opportunity to buy an old family house at a time that I wasn't really in the market, yes property taxes and the state of the city in general are a very big concern of mine.

Shawn

Excuse me for getting edgey on this, believe me I have run the numbers hundreds of times. To reduce tax burdens we have to get Dell to move in. To do that the tax abatements will nulify any gain.

I do not envy Tom Jordan. With a surplus of $60,000 you can't afford much in the way of planning mistakes. Even with the economic development fund of $250,000 there is not much room for even near misses.

Let's be honest if this was Sim City we could just reboot. But those are neighbors in those homes next to you.

Shawn/Joan/Charyn
This is not to say that there is no business on the horizon that might turn Lakewood into Kuwait, or even a more competitive city for people that only look at taxes. But I have yet to see what it is outside of Condos, where the tax burden is spread thinner throughout the community.

Another part of the Visionary Alignment for Lakewood(Ancient Order of Observers of the Stonecutters, sisters to the Royal Bystanders, and brothers to the Delightful Dancing Daughters of Delphi) Is the Emerald Canyon Co-Op. This whole cocnept was born out of the fact we never saw takes going down, so let's wotk to get our cost of living reduced. Another very real possibility for making Lakewood easier on the pocketbook.

So while many go off looking for the luxury liner to pluck us from our sinking dingy in the sea of dispair and high taxes. My crazy ass radical thinking friends and myself will be back here bailing water as fast as we can. Helping stores move into storefronts, and good neighbors move in from out of town. Or whatever we can.


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Charyn Compeau wrote:Please re-read my post - I did not advocate one thing or another

Thank you.
Charyn Compeau

Sorry


my mistake.



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Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Do you know how weird it is seeing the names of three people that recently chose Lakewood for their homes, now feel there is a need to change it.

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you're right....I'm only a taxpayer and did not go to 4th grade at McKinley.

I have no standing to speak.

Enjoy your Lakewood.

ttfn

Jim O'Bryan wrote:But can I not find it odd, that people would move to an area they seem anxious to change? Why buy a white car if you wanted blue?.

Yeah, well, isn't the Observer experiment a method to, uh, change Lakewood?

dl meckes wrote:

Jim O'Bryan wrote:But can I not find it odd, that people would move to an area they seem anxious to change? Why buy a white car if you wanted blue?.

Yeah, well, isn't the Observer experiment a method to, uh, change Lakewood?

DL

The Lakewood Observer Project can change Lakewood I suppose, but as I am sure you remember it was never one of the reasons to start it. The reason was to understand Lakewood better, which would allow all to benefit. Even in the VAL, it was never more than a way to get ideas out, and discussed.


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Jim O'Bryan wrote:The Lakewood Observer Project can change Lakewood I suppose, but as I am sure you remember it was never one of the reasons to start it. The reason was to understand Lakewood better, which would allow all to benefit. Even in the VAL, it was never more than a way to get ideas out, and discussed.


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How can you remain the same when you learn to better understand something? I'd suggest that you can't.

The Observer was started without an agenda other than the one you have reiterated, although that's difficult for many people to accept.

That idea never precluded or excluded change.

As I recall, one of the initial participants made comments about unintended consequences.

And, my friend, one of those consequences is change.

when great, good, bad, and horrible ideas get kicked around in a civic source there's bound to be change.

people think what they think, say what they say. it's all great- you can benefit from anything a person says on here, you might learn something new about the city or yourself. If you disagree with a person's views you learn more about what you do agree with.

so in that case, we're all constantly students of life.

If a man does not keep pace with his companions,
perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer.
Let him step to the music which he hears,
however measured or far away.
-- Henry David Thoreau

Mr. K.

As ever, you are a powerful agent for inspiration and value in our civic source experiment.

Dare I say it, something now wholly evident from your post, you are the Renaissance Man of the Wood! Bringing a kernel of Thoreau through your lens as reader to our civic source discussion about biz reveals your profound sensibility.

It's an honor for me to share your company and inspiration as we build the brand, bang the drum and load for Bear.

Many thanks,

Kenneth Warren

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