The Observation Deck

DL, can we please have a fresh sticky for this thread?

It's time to get this show on the road. I want to post just a couple questions to get things rolling, but not so many that it's too regimented. To give us a little focus, and to let latecomers/stragglers finish up, I'll stay in the first half of the book (Chapters 1-10) today, and post some second half questions later (maybe Thursday?).

So, to get things started (my responses will follow in a separate post):

Which of the women do you most identify with?

Which chapter/topic/conversation (Ch. 1-10) did you find the most interesting?

How have your own attitudes and stereotypes of the three religions been altered by reading The Faith Club?

I think I identified most with Ranya. She seemed to be the most open-minded and rational, and the most accepting of the other faiths at face value. Suzanne is a bit self-righteous and wants everyone to convert, Priscilla wants everyone to pity the Jews, but Ranya mostly just wants everyone to get along.

The "crucifixion crisis" was interesting to me. I found myself siding with Suzanne, in that I felt Priscilla was oversensitive more than Suzanne was insensitive. I couldn't understand why Priscilla didn't see, and why Ranya and Suzanne didn't explain better, that any inclusion of Christianity in the "project" MUST include the crucifixion. Exclude it, and you exclude Christianity. I understand the sensitivity of the subject to Jews, but I thought Priscilla should have seen that her solution to the crisis (not talking about the crucifixion) was irrational.
I also liked Ranya's line that she had faith, but no religion; Priscilla had religion, but no faith; and Suzanne had both.

I am not a religious man, so I find it especially frustrating when religion causes conflict. These three woman were judging each other from the context of their own religions. Because I'm not a man of faith, my stereotypes tend to be of the "religious" generally, rather than Muslims, Christians, or Jews specifically.

I have trouble understanding how independent, educated people can follow a religion or believe in god. I get irritated by the self-righteousness of "believers," yet I'm self-righteous in my disbelief. I'm frustrated and angry when religions are oppressive or intolerant of homosexuals, women, other religions, etc., but those religions are just targets of my own intolerance.

But the women in the book are just real people -- they're not theologians. They all believe in the superiority of their own religions, yet that confidence masks a lot of insecurities and fears in all three of them. I liked when Priscilla had her "conversion" when she was looking down on the Great Lakes, or Ranya talking about being in the planetarium at the Natural History Museum. It really helped understand something I never could before - how even educated, intelligent people, people of science, can believe in god, how they can see god in the wonders of the universe.

Now, I'm still not a believer, I haven't had any great epiphany or revelation. My wife, who is a Christian, will often say to me on a beautiful day or amidst beautiful scenery, "How can you not believe in god?" and I would roll my eyes. I now know better what she means. I feel the same wonderment and awe that she's feeling - she attributes it to god's creation, I attribute it to billions of years of geologic formation shaped by climate, weather, and time (or put more poetically, I attribute it to nature). So what if we call it different things? Aren't the feelings the same? And can't this apply just as easily to different religions? Or are the differences in ideas, rituals, etc. irreconcilable?

Which of the women do you most identify with?
Like you Brad, I think I most identified with Ranya. I have always been fascinated by other religions and not willing to accept all of the doctrine in mine - Christianity. That is why we finally decided to become Unitarian Universalists because it encouraged that kind of thinking. Perhaps I too felt like there was a period where I had lots of faith but couldn't find the correct church for me. Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Humanists are all attending our church and we learn from each other.

Which chapter/topic/conversation (Ch. 1-10) did you find the most interesting?
I found the stories that they chose to present to the children most interesting. Of all the stories in the old testament - I'm not sure I would have selected the burning bush. But I understood the goal of accepting the challenges we face.

I was fascinated by the night flight of Muhammad and the fact that he met with Jesus and Moses and other biblical figures in heaven.

I was also surprised that Suzanne chose the Pentecost for the story of Christianity. It isn't one that I learned as a child.

How have your own attitudes and stereotypes of the three religions been altered by reading The Faith Club? I found that I learned something about all the religions. I've been a Christian all my life and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood and attended the Jewish community center so I felt I was pretty informed on both of those religions. I have read a lot, but I even had an aha on my own religion. One of my difficulties with Christianity was that we were supposed to treat all of the 10 commandments I always thought as being equal. But cooking on Sunday or driving in a car, or turning on the lights (which to my Jewish friends constituted work) seemed to be to be much less serious of an offense than killing someone. So I finally understood that others questioned it too and even asked Jesus what was the most important of the commandments. He replied "To love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your strength and your neighbor as yourself. " I guess I had always known that verse - but I never saw it as saying that maybe Jesus thought there was a hierarchy in the commandments too and that I was not alone in my questioning.

I wasn't surprised at all by the emphasis on the Holocaust in the Jewish religion. I, like all of my Jewish friends in HS read every book we could find on it. It seemed as if I grew up hearing whispered stories about Grandmothers or Grandfathers or Great Aunts or Uncles who had escaped. In fact I brought up my children with the concept that "The only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing" - a kind of always be aware that you have to fight against evil concept. But I was still surprised by her reaction to the crucifix.

I guess the other part that I learned a lot about was Islam. I didn't realize that the Prophet had sought to bring equality among the sexes. I didn't realize that they begin and end each of the five prayers they say a day wishing peace for Jews and Christians.

My favorite moment in the book was when Priscilla was talking to her Rabbi and asked him why it was that people can use religion to whip up so much hatred and he replied "You want people to use their sacred texts to make the world a better place...but that text can become a weapon in the wrong hands...Even the devil can quote scripture." pg. 27

1. Which of the women do you most identify with?
Although I liked Ranya the best, I have to say that I identified with Suzanne the most. I am a Catholic, and I could identify with Suzanne's Roman Catholic Midwestern upbringing. I can also understand her feelings that caused her to convert to the Episcopal Church as an adult. I saw Suzanne as being strong in her Faith at the beginning of the book, but she was very unaware of other beliefs. She learned a great deal as the book progressed, and really worked through some of the stereotypes that she previously held about Jewish and Muslim people.

2. Which chapter did you find most interesting?
I think that I learned the most from Chapter 9: "The Promised Land". This was the chapter that delved into Israel and Palestine. It examined the religious roots of the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian people to the "Holy Land'. This chapter gave me a better grasp of the history of this region, and the conflicts that continue there. On a more personal note, I also enjoyed Chapter 10: "Prayer". It helped me to see how others pray, and it helped me to differentiate better between private and public acts of prayer.

3. How have your own attitudes and stereotypes of the three religions been altered by reading The Faith Club?
A quote early in the book jumped out at me. In Chapter 3, p.28, Priscilla is talking to her Rabbi, Jeffrey Sirkman. She is discussing her search for a children's story that teaches tolerance. Jeffrey answers, "I never liked that word 'tolerance'. It's too passive. Think about it. To tolerate someone? That doesn't sound very positive. It's not a call to engage and understand someone else. I like the phrase 'mutual appreciation'. That can lead to an understanding that no one faith has a monopoly on the truth." This passage has helped me to not just "tolerate" the beliefs of others, but to truly try to learn and appreciate more about their faiths.

Lynn, I like this book in part because of what you said about having an "aha" moment about your own religion. These three women got together hoping to learn a little more about each other, and ended up learning a lot about themselves. This is what I meant about them being real people, not theologians. The average Christian/Jew/Muslim/etc. doesn't know very much about his/her own religion, which leads to as many problems as not knowing much about other religions.

I was hoping one of you could explain the Pentecost to me, because I don't know what it is. I know a lot of Bible stories (I did go to Sunday school) and I know of Pentecostal churches, but I don't know of it as a specific event (or series of 5=pente events?). I kept waiting for Suzanne to get to that, but it got derailed by the "crucifixion crisis."

Jennifer, I also loved that part about tolerance. I've never really thought about it before, that connotation of tolerance meaning "putting up with even though you're frustrated."

I'm glad you were honest enough to choose Suzanne. Not that she's a bad role model, just because questions like that don't always gather honest responses. I bet if you polled 100 readers of this book, 70 would say they identified with Ranya because she's smart, rational, open-minded, even-keeled, and beautiful.

I also think Ranya interested me the most. I don't have much exposure to Muslims. I understand that the bin Ladens of the world are the minority. They only Muslim family I knew growing up had a Muslim father, a Christian mother, 2 sons and a daughter. The father was very strict, and the mother would often cover for the daughter to go to dances and things because she wasn't allowed. The sons had a lot of pressure to be doctors, I remember.

Anyway, I know that's not much to go on, but I always thought of Islam as being the stricter of the 3 religions regarding mosque attendance, rituals, etc. But Ranya isn't like that, and a big part of the 1st half of the book is that Ranya DOESN'T go to mosque because she has trouble finding one that believes the same things she does.

But that started leading me to reconsider that these 3 women are just individuals, yet we the reader take them as being average -- you might say that, in a sense, we just shift the stereotypes we had to fit these women. Maybe Ranya has such a hard time finding a mosque because she's not a very "good" Muslim. Suzanne, and you, Lynn, had a myriad of churches to choose from. There's a denomination of Christianity to fit everyone, isn't there? But it seems that Muslims and Jews don't really have that beyond 2 or 3 sects. They aren't as customizable as Christianity. We all want to be be able to fit religion to our modern lives, but maybe they just aren't always reconcilable. Perhaps what Ranya needs is for Islam to undergo a "Vatican II."

Maybe Jewish people don't have as many choices as Christians do - but there is a wide variety. There are Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed which vary tremendously in the interpetation of the scriptures. Plus there are variations on these.

Likewise I think Islam has several varieties, but they may be more closely related to where you reside. It seems as if the type of Islam practiced in India for example is different from the one practiced in Saudi Arabia for example. I know there are Sunni's and Shites butt he differences seem more than that and I too am curious.

I also liked the interview that Priscilla had with her Rabbi on tolerance. In fact my favorite line from the book about the Devil quoting scripture came at the end of that meeting.

Brad, to answer your question about Pentecost I turned to my first grade son who just had a quiz about it in religion class last month. Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Easter Sunday (I believe the "pente" has some language relation to 50, maybe Latin or Greek?). It commemorates a time when the disciples were gathered after the Resurrection of Jesus. At this time the disciples were touched with tongues of flames (touched by the Holy Spirit). The disciples began to speak in tongues, and this began their call to spread the message of Christ. My son summed it up by saying: "It was when the Holy Spirit visited the disciples." For more information, you can read the Book of Acts, Chapter 2 in the Bible.

Like you, I also wondered early in the book if Ranya represented a "typical" Muslim woman. However, I have to go back to the premise of the book that all of these woman are exploring their faith, and finding their personal paths and methods of practicing their faith. I was glad to see that Ranya found a Mosque that met her needs by the end of the book. It was also encouraging for me to see Muslims portrayed in a moderate light, rather than the extremists that are so often portrayed in the media.

I'm interested in revisiting the topic of Rituals and hearing what you think. I've always thought a lot about what they discuss in that chapter, about adapting religions to the modern world. I'm always torn between "yes, they must be adapted" and "But that's just a cop out to make it easier."

Now, if I was a practicing anything, I'd be all about modern interpretation. But I would always wonder if it still counted. If we subscribe to ancient religions, shouldn't we be bound by them? I thought Priscilla was the most casual about it: "I'm a reform Jew, so it's OK. No reform Jews care if the bar mitzvah is in my backyard." Well, that may be convenient, but isn't it BS? I don't go to church, pray, or believe in a god, but can't I just call myself a Knick Knack Paddy Wack Muslim and feel confident that my ticket is punched?

Ranya says the god she believes in doesn't care about all these traditional rituals. But that means she doesn't believe in Islam, doesn't it?

I guess my question is, at what point aren't you really practicing the religion anymore? When is it that you say, "You know what, I call myself a _________ but I'm really just doing my own thing here." And, more importantly, does it matter? Is a religion (organized) more than just rituals? Is personal spirituality different? To what degree are they intertwined?

Lynn, are we still doing Freedom in Exile for February? Jennifer, would you like to choose something for March?

I've really enjoyed The Faith Club and the subsequent discussion, even though it was just the 3 of us. But this thread had a lot of views. Maybe some others would like to saddle up for the next book? Freedom in Exile isn't very long!

As I scanned Chapter 11: "Rituals". I noticed a particular passage that I had underlined while reading. It was on p. 160 when Suzanne wondered: "Why did my husband and I muster our kids on Sunday morning, scrub them, dress them, and hurry our family to church by nine-fifteen?" I have to admit that there are some Sunday mornings that I think the same things. However, I feel a connectedness to the Rituals of the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that by providing my children a place in a faith based community, I will help them experience good will through acts of kindness and service. I emphasize to my children that attending mass is just a small part of living a Christian life. The ritual of Sunday mass is a public/community expression of faith. However, how we live our lives each day is far more important than the hour once a week spent in church. It is important to treat others as we would want to be treated, and to give back to others through acts of service.

I'm up for Freedom in Exile next. Hopefully others will join in. As for a March book. I'll toss out a few suggestions, and you can give me some feedback. If we want to keep with nonfiction, I may like to try Framework for Understanding Poverty by: Ruby Payne, with the changing demographics of Lakewood this might be an eye opening read, and it has been recommended to me by many people. If we want to move towards fiction. I'm looking forward to reading A Thousand Splendid Suns by: Khaled Hosseini (author of The Kite Runner). I also have a book sent to me by a friend that I've been wanting to read called The Time Traveler's Wife by: Audrey Niffenegger, I guess that I would call it a science fiction love story. Let me know what sounds good to you, or feel free to suggest something else.

Jennifer,

Thanks for your response. I guess I understand the importance of the community, another subject much discussed in the book. That seems to me to be more important than rituals. But why have all the rituals? Perhaps they are necessary to create a sense of community, like a secret handshake or a password or anything else clubs do.

I'd really like to leave the March book up to you, but for my two cents: I feel no pressing need to stick with nonfiction -- I'd like to keep the "list" of choices as open as possible. I'm up for anything. My wife (who I'm trying to get to register for the forum and join the book club - she's enjoyed reading The Faith Club) really liked The Kite Runner. But, anything I can learn from and enjoy good discussion about is fine with me.

Brad, this is a very interesting question.

I guess my question is, at what point aren't you really practicing the religion anymore? When is it that you say, "You know what, I call myself a _________ but I'm really just doing my own thing here." And, more importantly, does it matter? Is a religion (organized) more than just rituals? Is personal spirituality different? To what degree are they intertwined?

I think the importance on rituals is very personal. Gandhi said that "religion is a personal matter between each person and his maker".

One of the things that I love about the Catholic church is the beautiful rituals. But I believe they are technigues to help us remember the tenants of religion and that is the importance of them. So if having the Bar Mitzvah in the temple or in the backyard causes the same rememberance I don't think God cares. I remember as a child camping and having a church service in the woods on Sunday and having that be very memorable, thinking about God and being surrounded by nature.

A favorite part that I read was on page 259 when Gandhi was suggesting to agressive Christian missionaries that they take a lesson from the rose. "A rose does not need to preach. It spimply spreads its fragrance. The fragrance is its own seron."

Sure, I'm still up fro Freedom in Exile for February. I too would like to see Jennifer select for March and I think either of the books she selected sound great. I've been wanting to read one of the books by Khaled Hosseini since everyone is raving about them. But the other too sound good too. It would be interesting to hear from others as well that may be reading too.

One more thought on rituals...I thought of this while in church today. The rituals of the Catholic Church help to unify its members. Therefore, no matter where in the world I attend church, there will be similarities from service to service. This helps to make the church welcoming and familiar to visiting Catholics. The sacramental rituals such as Baptism, Reconciliation, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage or Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick are ways to observe significant moments in ones faith journey.

For the March book I have picked A Thousand Splendid Suns by: Khaled Hosseini. Hopefully others will join in on this discussion or the next. It is odd to discuss with two other people, while knowing that there have been over 200 views of this thread. Looking forward to Freedom in Exile in February. Lynn, when should be try to be finished with the book?

Thanks for your patience with me, ladies, in answering my question on rituals. Jennifer, your response on the rituals creating a worldwide community that transcends culture and language barriers especially made sense to me.

I, too, was surprised at how many views this thread had, given that only the three of us participated in discussion. I'd like to warmly invite all of the sideline watchers to join us. The first chapter of Freedom in Exile has reeled me in already.

FYI, Freedom in Exile, the autobiography of the Dalai Lama, is shelved, at least at Barnes & Noble, in the Eastern Religions section, not in Biographies. At the Crocker Park B&N, these sections are right next to each other.