The Observation Deck

Building a commuter rail line through Lakewood would have the same affect as building a new freeway through Lakewood.

It would devastate the economy and housing values in the City, require huge tax payer subsidies to maintain and operate, encourage outward migration, increase noise and traffic problems and do nothing but massage the ego's of politicians who can't run a City but think they can run a railroad.

Any candidate that supports this foolish, dangerous, counterproductive, idiotic idea looses my vote.

If for some strange reason any of the candidates support this idea they should at least have sense enough to insist on $500 million dollars in development money for the City to lessen the economic damage.

This City has suffered from the lack of planning, foresight, imagination and common sense from our political leadership for years. The building of this commuter rail line would be the final nail in the coffin.

It's almost as if their goal IS the destruction of the City.

Even though it's not a bad idea, commuter line seems like a fantasy. I am one who believes that public transportation is a good thing.

I have never seen any actual blueprints for a line. The idea I heard (which is at least ten years old) was to run the line on the existing train tracks, since no other option is feasible. I doubt such a line would devastate property values. However, I don't see any funding for such a project, so I think this idea will never happen.

I've been told that such a line once existed....it ran all the way out to Lorain County. Anyone have any memories of this?

I completely disagree. I would love to see the red line extended onto the existing tracks through lakewood. Unfortunately, I've heard rumors of this project since we moved here, but I don't know that the funding will ever be there, along with the difficulties in diverting commercial rail traffic around the city, I'm not holding my breath that this will become a reality.

Ideally, I'd love to see the commuter rail line extended in a sweeping circle that continued out through Rocky River, Westlake and all the way out to Crocker Park, then turn south and make a run through the Great Northern area and finally reconnect to the existing end at the airport.

Having more transportation options is a good thing.

I'm not sure I agree with the Freeway analogy. And I certainly don't see how this would devastate the economy or housing values. Do you have examples to cite? The one that comes to mind for me is Takoma Park and Silver Spring Maryland.

Brett

I have attneded many of the meetings on this, and have a good idea where things are and how they plan to pay.

But Bill Call seems pretty informed on this idea and where it is.

So please Bill share some info.


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Frankly, I think Bill's wrong ... because I think if there were a commuter rail system linking Lakewood with Cleveland and points east ... hopefully utilizing the current Norfolk Southern tracks ... I think we'll find MORE people willing to move into Lakewood so they can take advantage of hopping the commuter train into Cleveland for work. I'd certainly do that, and I know others who do.

Let's not ignore Lakewood's history ... look how urban mass transit helped define this city. Lakewood became Cleveland's "bedroom community" because people could hop a streetcar and ride it into Cleveland. Read Stilgoe's "Metropolitan Corridor" to find out how rail systems created and defined urban areas and inner-ring suburbs. Freeways have pulled people away, not rail systems. Successful thriving cities have excellent urban mass transit systems, and it is very often a reason for people to move to the neighborhoods or suburbs they choose, so they can have an efficient method of commuting.

The problem in Cleveland is that when the suburbs started expanding, Cleveland Transit (later RTA) did not expand with them (mostly due to finanicial and management problems), so we're left with a Rapid system that doesn't go to where the people are, and is blocked from much future advancement. It would have been great if the Green Line could have been extended all the way to 271; commuters coming in from the far suburbs could have parked there, and caught the Rapid into downtown. However, Beachwood didn't want "undesirables" using the Rapid to come out and cause crime (because you know, there's no better getaway vehicle than a Rapid Train ...).

That's still a common mentality, that mass transit is for those folks who can't afford cars, and many comments made by some of the western suburbs after it was proposed that a commuter line run west from Cleveland all the way to Vermilion was that people were afraid that "undesirables" would come out via the train to rob these communities or otherwise cause trouble. That's pretty darn silly. Commuter rail will only BENEFIT Lakewood and other communities, and will be more of an enticement to locate here. Because it would be great to walk down to a station or train stop, hop on the commuter train, and sit and read the paper or listen to your iPod for an easy ride in, rather than having to fight traffic, wait in traffic jams, or try to navigate your way through construction. Families could hop the trains on weekends to run down to Jacobs Field or Browns stadium and avoid parking hassles.

It's a great concept, and one that will greatly help the quality of life in the Greater Cleveland area ... which includes Lakewood. Divided we stand, united we fall.

c. dawson wrote:Frankly, I think Bill's wrong ...

It's a great concept, and one that will greatly help the quality of life in the Greater Cleveland area ... which includes Lakewood. Divided we stand, united we fall.

C D

Think of it after the expansion, to Cedar Point and the Ferries to the Islands.

Ken has already dubbed it the Whiskey Train!


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Hi,
Read Mr. Dawson's comments:

Frankly, I think Bill's wrong ... because I think if there were a commuter rail system linking Lakewood with Cleveland and points east ... hopefully utilizing the current Norfolk Southern tracks ... I think we'll find MORE people willing to move into Lakewood so they can take advantage of hopping the commuter train into Cleveland for work. I'd certainly do that, and I know others who do.

So, Mr. Dawson do you regularly use the Rapid?

How would this commuter rail system make the ride from Lakewood to Cleveland different? Do we need 2 rail systems from Lakewood to Cleveland?

Don

How would this fit into a green community if it went to Sandusky? The Islands? tied into the Lake Erie Limited that goes from New Your to San Francisco?

How would that help a green community.

Might even be used to get people one block from our peninsula?

Just a thought.



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Jim O'Bryan wrote:So please Bill share some info.
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According to a sometimes unreliable source:

The commuter rail line to Avon, Avon Lake and Elyria and points West will open up 50,000 acres of undeveloped land to a "New Community", a kind of residential Crocker Park. The vision is to build this community along the lines track with some feeder lines to increase the access to commuter line.

I am not sure who owns the bulk of the property.

The general idea is to open the new I-90 interchange in Avon to provide new auto access and to open up points North to the new commuter line.

The vision is (other than making tons of money for the land owers) is to add 40,000 people to that area. With easy access to both Downtown Cleveland and points West that area around Avon, Avon Lake and North Ridgeville will become the economic center of gravity for the entire area.

The commuter rail line is not about mass transit, it's about new development in Eastern Lorain and Far Western Cuyahoga County. Of course since there is plenty of land south of North Ridgeville that area will eventually become the new exurbs to the "New Community". Where does that leave Lakewood?

Since North East Ohio is losing population and a rail line will do nothing to stop that population loss the "new" residents will have to come from somewhere. Where do you suppose they will come from?

Hi,
Someone suggested a loop around train that ran to Great Northern and Crocker Park. Not a bad idea and good destinations for an extension of our existing west side Rapid line that runs to the Airport. I could see it connecting to those points.

Another, raised the point of a rail system being "green". I think we could say 1 light rail system is indeed green. But several rail systems are not green. They are redundant and would actually compete against each other. I think we barely given the rapid enough business to operate. 2 of these lines and I feel they would both die.

Romantically thinking, a rail line to points as far west as Cedar Point sound great. But if such a line was going to stop in Cleveland and then again in Lakewood, I would have to assume it would be making stops in all the other little cities and towns between here and there. That makes for a very long train ride. When we were in Europe we traveled by train regularly and it was wonderful. When we visited Russia we traveled by train and it wasn't. We also took the train from Washington to NYC. That ended our desire to travel by train. It was bad.

So, if you feel we need to aid the extra-burbs mass transit situation into and out of Cleveland, I say fine, just link it onto the end of the existing rapid line.

And we can tie the peninsula into the hi-speed ferry line that is going to loop around Lake Erie. There's a great route to get people to Cedar Point.

Don

First this is not a rapid line.

Second the current rapid line does not head west it head almost south.

I have never heard the name RTA mentioned at any meetings.

I would also like to mention I am not completely sold on this, but you and Bill seem to be so far off the mark that I have to jump in and mention the things being done.

The group working on this have been working their collective asses off for this, and now seem to have it moving forward.


FWIW

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Hi,
Please explain to me the radical difference between the Rapid and this Commuter train. I see no real difference between Lakewood and Cleveland.

Thanks, for the geography lesson on where the Rapid runs. It is close to Great Nortern Mall (which is also conviently south) and then could go north to Crocker Park. Do you care Mr. O'Bryan if those riders need to take a little jog south? Unless Mr. Call is correct on the reason for this push for a far west commuter line, I fail to see a reson for all these great people of Lakewood are working for this.

I see a Lorain county commuter line as a huge pain for Lakewood drivers. More trains on our track and more Lakewood car drivers sitting on the streets watching these trains roll through Lakewood. I would guess we could expect more train related injuries. I live in Clifton Park, so we have 2 underpasses, but the rest of Lakewood does not.

So, could someone, please enlighten me on how this "Commuter Train" but not the Rapid would be good for Lakewood.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:The group working on this have been working their collective asses off for this, and now seem to have it moving forward.

Why?

The vacant lot on Belle would be a great spot for Lakewood Hospital expansion, new housing, part of a new development stretching from Belle to Kaufmann Park, etc.

Instead it will be traded for a new parking lot and a train station.

If this project goes through it will do great damage to this community.

I am not surprised that there are some willing to trade the future of this City for some half ass railroad I am surprised that some of them are from Lakewood.

If they are going to sell the future of the City at least they can demand a stiff price instead we are asked to pay for the privilege.

What am I coming to?

Once again, I find myself largely in agreement with BILL CALL!!!!????

Historically, as far as I've learned, outbound rail lines don't necessarily provide great benefit to areas close into the terminus. Besides, the RTA lets us hop on at Triskett or w117th, without spoiling Lakewood's pristine beauty.

Streetcar-type railways, while scenic and beautiful, would simply have to cover too much ground too quickly to be effective, in my opinion. People have say, a half hour to get to work. That's hard for a leisurely bell-ringing inter-urban trolley to accomplish.

And have we forgotten.....snow? Getting the ice and snow off those rails would be real fun, I imagine.

The truth is that sooner or later, even more improved efficient, clean and effective mass transit will be coming to our cities. In some places around the world, it's already there. Before we jump in spending millions on intermediate steps, we need to know exactly what might work for our situation, and how much would it be used?

We used to have rail cars going through town, plus an old interurban train that rumbled nearby; with its terminus out there by Linndale. They were dropped for many of the same reasons that they would be of questionable benefit today.

The fact remains that there are no unsightly overhead trolley lines anymore, and buses can go up and down any route they wish, without putting down new rail lines to do it. Flexibility is always a strong argument in an urban plan.

It's always a good idea to question new ideas thoroughly before they are implemented. All too often we are not as careful as we need to be when we spend the "peoples' money".

Particularly with the region in the shape its in.

At least that's my opinion.

An article in the PD regarding a proposed interchange at I 90 and LearNagle bears on this subject. Apparently Jacobs owns a lot of acerage in the area which would be "opened for development" by the addition of the interchange. One advocate is the Clinic who is planning a fairly large facility at the Jacob's site. Article makes it clear, at least in my mind, that the big winners in facilitating ease of urban sprawl are the exburbs in eastern Lorain county. The same would hold true for light rail transport.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/plaindea ... xml&coll=2

Jeff