The Observation Deck

If you have Cox Cable and OnDemand, I'd suggest you check out the latest episode of Penn and Teller's B.S. on the Boy Scouts.

I just made a couple of phone calls out of curiosity, and was given a run-around regarding the Boy Scouts being against gays and atheists, and their policy of not allowing anyone who is gay or an atheist to be a member or leader, however one person who declined to give their name out did tell me both items are in the scout manual, which is available.

Surprisingly, we the public are supporting, through our tax money, the anti-gay, anti-atheist policy of the Boy Scouts of America. They use public funds, and have done so for decades. They use public schools and public buildings for meetings, as well as the Jamboree, which costs the tax payers 5 million or so for each Jamboree. Interesting.

I realize this isn't going to change the face of Lakewood, but I was taken aback by these two policies that began in the late '90s.

If you have someone in the Boy Scouts, you might want to ask about these policies. I'd rather not see our kids being taught bigotry any more than they get on the streets as it is.

good points, although public money is also funding a lot of other things at least as questionable like killing unwanted children...not trying to open up a separate debate, but the Boy Scouts are not unique

Doug

The policies of the Boy Scouts have been "out" for quite some time. But as they are a religiously founded organization, it shouldn't come as any big surprise what their policies are.

As for the rest, that's up to the individual to judge. However, religious organizations have just as much right to public land as anyone else. And as for funding, there are plenty of other similarly based organizations that receive governmental support.

Oh Heavens.....

Now, I can only speak from my experience...

First as a girl scout myself...

And now as a mother of a boy scout...

But I haven't seen nor heard anything from anyone that isn't centered on the core values of kindness, honesty, integrity, yes - faithfulness, yes - allegiance to the United States. (one of two places I know of where the pledge is said with regularity - and where I can still stand up and join my voice with others is saying it.. hand over heart, teary eyes on the flag)

And while for generations, boys (and later girls)have been able to join the boy/girl scouts and go and do, or go and learn, things they never would have had the opportunity to go, do and learn otherwise, the amount of funding for these types of programs has been steadily declining, they have been attacked with regularity, and the good that they do is largely ignored by the sensationalist media.

I dont now, nor will I ever, condone exclusion based upon race, color, national origin, or sexual orientation. It is simply wrong.

However, 200 years of social conditioning, tradition, and history will never appear overnight. While it is terribly important to push for social reform - we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I believe that will likely cause far more social harm than good in the long run.

JMO
Charyn

Mark,

You are a veteran of our nation's armed forces, and as you are aware, they too, have policies regarding gays. You would certainly feel affront if someone criticized the military, for one aspect of their overall program.

This is, as you are aware, a difficult, sensitive and controversial issue in our nation, and due compassion and care needs to be used when discussing these things. I am sure that within Scouting, there are various opinions, as well.

These issues are not, however, new to the Scouts. Newsweek carried the Scout gay/atheist story years ago.

I am a leader in the Boy Scouts of America, and have been for years. My father is, as well, as are some of the most giving, selfless, and caring men and women I've ever met. Rather than being anti-anything, the Scouts stand for things...like being:

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Their motto is:

On my honor, I will do my best,
To do my duty, to God and my Country.
and to obey the Scout Law.

To help other people at all times.
and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake,
and morally straight.

True, the Scouts have taken hits with reduced contributions over their stand. Some troops have had to relocate to other sponsoring bodies, when their former hosts withdrew their support.

But they have prevailed time and again in court and elsewhere, as they exercise the right of being a private organization in America.

More than that, Scouts were chartered by an Act of Congress.

Your point would no doubt center on whatever monies the Scouts receive, and whether the money would be going to an anti-gay/anti-atheist group.

Scouts as I said before, stand for positive things.

I am quite surprised at your posting. This is an old, worn out issue. Those of us in Scouting are honored to be a part of the organization.

There are some great troops in Lakewood. People interested in Boy Scouting should contact the Scout Headquarters at 216-861-6060 for more information.

Dad is known as "Backwoods Bob" and I, as "Tenderfoot Gary". We do a banjo/fiddle duo for the Scouts. On Saturday, at Scout Headquarters on Woodland Ave. we are having a make-your-own-instrument session, and sing-a-long for whomever shows up from 1-3.

Come on down, Mark! We'll show you a better way to start a fire!

Personal to Charyn,

You were a Girl Scout?

Well, let's bring out that banjo!

Do you remember that song- "The ash grove, the ash grove, how plainly...."


And to you old Lakewood Boy Scouts, including former members of my old 1960's Troop 512 from Grace Presbyterian...

How many of you remember the words of the Region 4 song?

"We are the Scouts of Region 4,
you've heard so much about...."

Memories.....

Yuppers... and then I was regular military girl when I grew up

No banjo here - but I can still whack a jazzy snare every now and then...

Cheers,
Charyn

I'm not against the Boy Scouts. I was one myself. As far as gays in the military, I didn't make the law and I have nothing against gays nor atheists. Live and let live as long as it does not hurt anyone or anything is my belief.
I was a Boy Scout briefly, pre-90's of course, and it was a positive experience.

I'm sure you and your dad are doing excellent things with those you lead.
I'm simply bringing up something that was most surprising, in finding out these items.

Mark Allan Crnolatas
Musician, with a 80 min CD of originals available for sale *shameless plug*, and a new business that can be read about at www.markproject.com

P.S. Btw, thank you and thank you "Dad Rice" for your compliments on my musicianship. I may have overlooked saying thank you, not due to arrogance, but due to usually posting while on less than couple hours of sleep. Poor excuse, yes, but I apologize the oversight.

Hey Mark,

With that sweet, beautiful daughter of yours, I'm sure that sleeping has been kinda rough since she was born.

Now that she's getting older, things are no doubt improving.

Dad and I both thank you for your kind words. He was a bit stunned with this post, but he knows your compassion, and he knows your heart.

All of these organizations have parts and parcels that not everyone will always agree with. It is so easy to tear anything down, and so hard to try and patiently work within a group to effect change.

Take Lakewood for example. I'm sure that we all could dump on our town and tear it down. Heck, people could do that with you or me personally, if they wanted to. Organizations and people all have their faults.

People and organizations are like diamonds having many facets; some are shiny, and some, perhaps not.

I see the hundreds of young people who benefit from Scouting, and I am well pleased. Who knows what policies will guide Scouting 5-10-20 years from now? Scouting has changed since I was a boy. Thank God.

I did not get past Tenderfoot, because of physical limitations. Therefore these days, I am known as "Tenderfoot Gary".

These days, there are many opportunities for challenged Scouts to advance, and even make Eagle, based on their own efforts.

Why not come on down Saturday and help your daughter make and play an instrument?

You are cordially welcome.

Charyn, bring your son and your drum!

All together now..."Kumbayah....."

Ahhh - but Saturday is the Scout family day - Steelhound Hockey at YSU

Peace,
Charyn

I think if you value the good in an organization, you should also work hard to try to reform that organization when they engage in bigotry.
The Boy Scouts have demonstrated considerable intolerance toward homosexuals. This, as far as I know, is not the case with the Girl Scouts, so please don't lump these groups together.

The Boy Scouts may espouse wonderful values but when I hear of stories of Eagle Scouts being tossed out because they are gay I feel it is a group that primarily espouses intolerance. I can't imagine the pain a young man must feel being tossed out of a community he has belong to for years simply because he is gay.

Yes. No organization is perfect. And the Boy Scouts as a private organization have the right to discriminate against homosexuals and atheists (they went to the Supreme Court to defend their right to do so). But I have a hard time ignoring institutionalized bigotry within an organization I'm affiliated with unless I'm doing my level best to try to fix it.

Just to put my paddle in the water.....

First the disclaimer: I was very active with Troop 115, Lakewood Presbyterian, for over a decade, Scoutmaster for a while. We stressed an outdoors experience, low impact camping, and camped 1 weekend a month, IN TENTS, regardless of weather. Backwoods trips to Algonquin, Quetico, New York, Pa, West Va. It was a good experience for me, as well as the kids.

But before we hols up the BSA as a poster child for "bigotry" and "intolerance" recognize that it is a private organization. And in fact, each troop is distinctly different. As with any group, the Jaycees, Kiwanis, Rotary, you may choose to join or not. But when we have major, and powerful religions whose bedrock foundation is essentially homophobic, holding up the BSA as the example of societal ills fails to address the much broader, more powerful and more accepted institutions at the base of those ills.

Jeff

Yeah, I'd have to jump in for support, too. I'm an Eagle Scout, damn proud of it, and while the "official" stance of the Boy Scouts is anti-gay and anti-atheist, what really matters is what happens down on the individual troop level. And I think you'll find that most of the leaders are caring individuals ... they have to be, to make the sacrifices necessary to be a scout leader (my dad was a scout leader for several decades, and he spent a LOT of time doing it). Sure, there might be some idiots who espouse hatred. But that's in ANY organization, even religious groups!

What I found was a great organization dedicated to the personal growth and development of young adults. Sure, the camping was fun, but I made a lot of good friendships, and I learned to accomplish things that I never was able to accomplish before. I also learned a good deal of tolerance and diversity; our troop had a physically disabled scout, who always wanted to be a scout, but was afraid his handicap wouldn't let him. Our guys embraced him, and had him participate in everything we did, and if it involved all of us helping to carry him into the wilderness to camp with us (or take him in on our klondike derby sleds), we did it. We also partnered with a scout troop that was based at a school in Lake County for developmentally disabled kids. And they loved coming out camping with us!

Yeah, I disagree with some of the idiots in the national leadership, who would love the Boy Scouts to be polarized and good right-wing born-again Christians, but ultimately, it's the individual leader or leaders at the troop level who make the most impact on the boys. I'm blessed that my dad and a host of other dads were there for our troop, and all of them had an impact on me.

I just wonder if the scouts in general are still good at attracting kids to the ranks. There's just so many distractions out there, too many toys and video games and reasons to not join up. I know even back in the day it wasn't terribly cool to be a boy scout ... and I was flabbergasted when I went to a local jamboree and discovered that a whole hoard of my friends from junior high school were also scouts ... but we were all "in the closet" (a term I'm sure the Boy Scouts hate!) about being scouts. In school, none of us would mention it, because we didn't want to come off as a bunch of geeks.

And now that I think about it, most of the guys I was in the scouts with have grown up to be quite successful in their chosen fields. Hmmm, I wonder if there's a connection ...

Thanks guys, for jumping into the discussion.

I was starting to feel a little lonely out there.

I still would not personally characterize the Boy Scouts as being anti-anything.

Instead, they stand FOR bedrock, core values that make for great leadership-oriented adults.

The program works, because it is positive and results-oriented.

Virtually every badge on a Scout's uniform reflects his, or her own efforts to be a better person, and to help make a better world.

As I've said before, ink is cheap. It is so easy to tear down an organization, and so hard to work from within for change.

I would be curious regarding Scouting's nay-sayers, as to exactly what kind of organizations they DO support?

All groups have policies that some members will object to. Were we utter purists, then by logic, we might not find any group that we would fully agree with.

Scouts, military personnel, religious, and fraternal groups take oaths, or obligations. If they are false to that obligation, they are logically false to their own hearts, and to their organization. Truth is a fundamental issue for our human family.

Isn't America great? We have the freedom to join just about any group, or none at all, if we so choose.

Please understand I am not tearing down the Boy Scouts. In general, I know it to be a fine organization. I was unaware, being unconnected with it since elementary school or beginning Jr. High and I'm a "LHS class of '68", that those two items existed at all.

I agree, that many organizations have certain bylaws that might be subject to controversy, but as a whole are fine organizations.

I wouldn't mind coming to hang out a bit, but Mr.Mom duty takes up the time, but thanks for the invitation.

Mark Allan Crnolatas