The Observation Deck

While standing in the checkout line at Giant Eagle, there was a rather heated debate between 2 women in front of us, involving "There is so much snobbery here, isn't it pathetic?"

While that is a comment between 2 people only, it's not the first time I've heard that statement. The problem is, there's individual attitudes everywhere, some positive and some not so positive.

While playing in a farm town pop. 900 at a Grange Hall after the bingo game (we had a creative booking agent for a short time .. the next gig was at the Hyatt Regency as the house jazz/blues group in Columbus ) ..there was a argument about snobbery in the farm town too. The large land owners vs. the small land owners.

So to pose a question for discussion : Does Lakewood really have a caste type problem in general, ie: those that live north of Clifton, and those that do not, or is it isolated to inviduals only? I would say we do not have a caste or attitude problem, but maybe others feel differently?

Btw Jim OB, in your quest for farm land, have you ever driven thru Urbana? A most awesome and mostly unknown small farm town in Ohio, with some of the most breathtaking old but fantastically large and beautiful mansions in the state.
I'm not suggesting it for anyone to move there, but happen to tell someone about it, and since they never heard of it, it brought back some fond memories since we would make a point of going thru it every chance we had, when heading north or south. http://urbanaohio.com/

The home-made pecan pie with home-made icecream in a small restaurant there was stuff dreams are made of.

Mark

Did you engage the woman in a discussion on a topic or is this another I overheard but never bothered to talk with them...

"The large land owners vs. the small land owners. "

Asses everywhere in this day and age.

BtW

I have given up looking for farmland. It was something I outgrew when I realized many of the truths of living the farmers life. I am looking to buy a building for another business I would like to start, and I am always looking for good single homes to snatch up and rent, all in Lakewood.

But feel free to climb on it. I am doing well here. I am very comfortable. I like my neighbors and work opportunities, and only know one snob. She lives in Bay.

My dreams are based on pancakes with real blueberries like the ones served at The Coffee Pot and/or The Place To Be.

peace.

Mark--- There is no snob problem as far as I'm concerned and you can verify that with my agent.
Stan

I jumped in on the convo, but basically got the brush-off by BOTH of them...tho it might have been the Harley T-shirt, jeans and boots.

I could only hope that this is an individual opinion.

I grew up in Lakewood for 25 years, moved to Rocky River for 5. Now, we are back in Lakewood.

Comparing the two...

"My individual opinion" would be that Lakewood is by far a better family community to live in then River. There is so much more for the kids to do and I have noticed that many more parents are involved here.

People don't make you feel like you don't "fit in" if your not wearing the right thing or driving the right car. Being a mother of five children, I noticed the "clicks" forming already at such young ages in River.

I don't notice these things being in Lakewood and I don't remember witnessing them much when I grew up here. I am proud to say that I am living and raising my children in Lakewood.

For those of you that want to be a part of or want to witness the snobbery, I suggest taking another glance at Rocky River.

Stan, have your people call my people or I'll have my people call your people and let's do lunch.

TRUE Snobbery

Myself, my wife (singer) , and our drummer, Louis Tsamous, who is now the drummer for Tony Monaco, another Hammond player, were eating lunch in the Daytonian Hilton, in Dayton, Oh. We were the house band at the time.

Buddy Rich, the legendary drummer, was in town and was staying in our hotel. He and a few of his people came down to the restaurant, took a table next to ours, and ordered, and ate. First, Louis told Buddy " Mr. Rich, I've admired your drumming since I was a little boy". Buddy replied " Good..kid..keep it up"..and went back to ordering.
While eating, Buddy and his manager discussed an upcoming tour, and Buddy's manager said " Buddy, Frank Sinatra was talking about joining the next tour. What a kick-ass tour that would be, don't you think Buddy? " Buddy, never loosing a beat, kept eating his crab legs, and said " Johnny boy, why should I add a boy singer after all these years, I do great myself." His manager said "But Buddy, this is Frank Sinatra"...and Buddy said " Yeah so what, I'm Buddy Rich"...with that Buddy stood up, told his manager to pick up the tab, and walked out of the restaurant.

Now THATS snobbery!

Mark Crnolatas wrote:TRUE Snobbery

Myself, my wife (singer)....

Mark

Couldn't you have just told us the story with the whole pseudo-snob set up?


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Jim O'Bryan wrote:Mark

Did you engage the woman in a discussion on a topic or is this another I overheard but never bothered to talk with them...

I guess I'm not really sure the relevance of this. I understand your point but IMHO, it's rude to jump into other people's private conversations so I probably wouldn't do it and I'm sure I'm not alone.

I don't see anything wrong with talking about what is overheard in Lakewood, both good and bad. It all lends to the a good discussion of the city we live in.

I guess I'm just missing how the two ladies' discussion loses it's relevance because Mark didn't talk to them. Either way, they still had the conversation and hold those opinions.

While you may have joined in the discussion, I don't see how you can hold only those discussions which would follow your pattern as valid for discussion.

Perhaps I'm truly reading this wrong and misunderstanding, and if I am I apologize. But if I'm not, then the Observer has just lost a fan because like it or not Jim, to the public, you are the Observer. I'm just not comfortable with this being a propaganda instrument or quasi-censorship tool.

Again, I go back to what I said in Charyn's thread: trying to ignore the negatives is putting your head in the sand as are those who downplay the positives.

Honest, open discussion is what gets the best results. Like it or net, people's perceptions, backed up with "facts" or not, are their realities.

Bryan

I believe my psychosis surrounds that while everyone has a right to their opinion, the Observation Deck was created in part for people to discuss things they are proud enough to take ownership of, not hiding behind faux names and masks.

I see the constant reference to "I overheard this..." Normally followed by a disclaimer like, "I do not completely agree with ..." to be silly and counter productive.

Let's use Mark for an example: Re-read the post. Do the two ladies in line add anything to the story? The only thing I see is an imaginary target that stops discussion. Now re-read the post leaving off the first three paragraphs.

Who tries to validate things they do not believe to the masses?

Wouldn't Mark's personal beliefs be more useful than the vagaries of "two woman"?

I am so proud of 12,000 messages with no edits, no deletes, no hiding, solid public discourse through respect and ownership. I see the constant I like it but this other guy... to be a very slippery slope and what we all have built and is now getting national attention.

But I will admit, Bryan, I might be too close to the problem and overreacting.

Ownership, support, public discourse, neighbors, progress

All very good things for this town.


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But Jim,
You're too rigidly defining what's valid, at least in my opinion. By discounting anything other than first person, positive, discourse you lose alot of possible brainstorming potential.

So what if in this case it was overheard. It was still a factual occurrence, the conversation did happen, to which Mark brought here to find out what others think about it. Neighbors to discuss what's going on the neighborhood if you will.

Sure, I'll give you that there has been no outright censorship here, but to me there's no difference between that and verbally belittling anyone who posts something contrary to what the "powers that be" might want to have public here.

One vibrant poster has already left this board recently. Perhaps the tenor of the responses need to be evaluated. It would be one thing if the person attacking the poster's credibility or post worthiness was just another random poster, but coming from someone who is a top leader of the Observer, it takes on a whole new, very unwelcoming tone. If you truly only want certain types of discussions here, I would definitely make that more clear so everyone knows the ground rules when the join. But if that's the case, then the Observer becomes no less of a propaganda piece than the now Crocker Park owned Westlaker that you decried in another thread.

Maybe I'm just more open and prefer more open discussions on all topics regarding Lakewood, regardless of origin. I think they all lend value and open our eyes to great things and new ideas.

Maybe this just isn't the right place for me.

Bryan Schwegler wrote:I guess I'm just missing how the two ladies' discussion loses it's relevance because Mark didn't talk to them. Either way, they still had the conversation and hold those opinions.

Bryan

PS - Because we have lost all context, and more importantly we have lost all chances to to pull any meaningful dialog from these two woman. So again we could have left the woman out and simply asked, "Are we snobs?"

An example that springs to mind is one of our earlier members "Primus." An ex-writer for a paper in Nigeria I believe. He used to talk with me about how prejudicial Lakewood is. Now I had remember old Lakewood and would have said yes. But new Lakewood seems at least at ease with out new found diversity. I questioned him and he was adamant that Lakewood people hated blacks. This conversation happened as we walked down Detroit, many people could of overheard the conversation, especially when I was asking, "Why do you say we are racists?" But as we walked how many heard him say to me, "When I talk they look at me like I am from another world!" I had to answer, "First you are from Nigeria, that is another world. And that his accent was so thick, and he would speak so fast I doubt that many Lakewoodites would even understand until they had grown used to him. Could that cause a weird look he took as racist?

Another great example of why hearsay cannot be counted on for much. How do we know they were not repeating a discussion they saw or heard elsewhere? You are at the Dollar Tree store and the couple in front are talking about Charyn's "overheard" remarks, "There were 6 people, even a black person, they all wanted to move, they were sick of it..." Now you come back and say, "I know of another 6 moving..."

88 Lakewood Business have helped to finance this, 7 people gave up a year of their lives, many people have spent many hours from their time bank to build this all inclusive table of discussion for all of Lakewood. Why waste it on rumors? We got some serious stuff to kick around.

Budget
Cable
Roads
Water
Schools
Crime
Rentals
Fishing
Birds
Sports
Visions
History
Pets
Iraq
Wages
Taxes
politics
politicians
food
cars
shopping
mark hanging with dead guys

Do we have to start reaching already?

Has this become the awkward blind date?

Hell Bryan I was just getting to know you.


peace



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Jim, you are calling the conversation Mark overheard a "rumor". To me it's factual, it occurred, Mark heard it and brought it here for discussion.

A rumor would be something more like "I heard that someone somewhere said that Lakewood might be snobbish." Mark heard these woman say what he posted. These woman clearly have a perception, an opinion. Mark thought it would make an interesting discussions. He witnessed what they said, that's not a rumor.

Now if I were to say that LHS was being town down to put in a strip mall, that's a rumor.

And Jim, I'm not necessarily leaving, but hell, you've pulled the welcome mat so quickly out from under me here that I just don't know what to do.

In the end, this could just be one giant misunderstanding, an argument over irrelevant semantics. Unfortunately the Internet makes that all too common these days.

Bryan

I am not good at this posting thing. Excuse me.

But you underline one of the problems. We know what you put out is rumor, you said it.

We have no context. We have no idea what proceeded it. I am not saying it did not happen. Why would he lie about that? What I am saying what if, we do not know if what was just reported was proceeded by: When my toothless cousin comes in from Louisiana with her one set of clothes and two pitbulls and said, "There is so much snobbery here, isn't it pathetic?"

What if it was like this? "There is so much snobbery here, isn't it pathetic?" they get their bags and walk out the door and she continues to her friend, "That's what I told Dave, I am never going back to West Palm Beach."

I am not telling Mark what to post, I am not telling him not to post it. I am merely wondering the value?

I could be wrong.

Just me taking ownership of my thoughts. Which are not worth one penny more or less than your's and Mark's.

The "hardly knew you..." was a reference to a bad blind date with nothing to speak of.

I would have rathered just heard about Buddy Rich. Got him on the ipod, and used to go to The Norton Brown Derby when I was 16 to see him play with his band. Got my first illegal drink there.


peace


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take a bike ride through the parking lot of marcs on a saturday morning and you'll find out if we have any snobs here in Lakewood

I run into a few of them while doing photography out in the field, especially sports or politics. Or if I'm working down at Jacobs Field (although cleveland has the best fans)

Vote Ivor in the year 2036! I'll remove all the snobbery that's left in this paradise!

For those of you that want to be a part of or want to witness the snobbery, I suggest taking another glance at Rocky River.

This is true, this is why I'd rather eat at "My Friends" just across 117th, than Applebees on Center Ridge. Although the Applebees burgers are better, the service at My Friends puts it ahead of any burger.


If you guys want to hear about snobs, I just got done working the New York Yankees series at Jacobs Field..........

Good thing we play them once a year here!