The Observation Deck

Perhaps someone (Preferably one of our council members or the Mayor) can explain how we can afford this great, new waterfront project, the first in 40 years, while Jim O. and Mr. Warren are insisting that the "economy is tanking".


Thanks you,

Joe

I just moved here (thanks again for all the advice everyone a few weeks back. I've got a nice place on Edgewater), but I think people may be surprised how well these condos could do.

I'm no expert, and I'm just going on anecdotal observations, but I've noticed that "new" construction, especially construction with big pluses (like being on the river), seem to sell well. I'm talking about some of the nice condos in Ohio City, for example. Also, in Hudson they are constructing pricey condos right on their new downtown development, and they are all sold out.

Anyway, again I'm not expert, but if they sell a bunch of these expensive condos, I'd assume they'd gain some solid tax revenue from the upper-class folks who buy them -- assuming, of course, a good number move into Lakewood from somewhere else.

I saw on Channel 3 the anchors seemed to be pessimistic about this whole idea. I think that sort of thing is self defeating. I wish this area could be a little more upbeat.

that is the question. Will the tax revenue generated after the Abatements be any greater than the tax revenue generated by selling your average 133 thousand dollar 70 year old house in Lakewood? Minus the increase in city infrastructure required for these new condo dwellers: I assume each resident (not just owner) will own at least one car. More driving equals more wear and tear on roads. It also means more congestion on the roads, which means more wasted fuel, noise, and air pollution. And great difficulty in walking across the street.

since they're driving anyways, the odds are they will drive to 90 or Clifton and dine and shop somewhere else.

The high growth suburbs in Lorain and Columbus experience municipal and school district funding shortfalls quite much more than you would expect in association with the trophy of being distinguished as "high growth".

Don't forget though, you're only focusing on property taxes here. These are high-end codos which will attract high-wage earners who pay high amounts of city income tax.

As for driving out of the city to dine and shop, people do that now. There's just not enough in Lakewood for what most people today are looking for.

And honestly who cares if it's built with abatements that cause the property tax to not gain anymore than it was before. Developments like this help build buzz and shows the city is not stagnant and that it's full of vitality. That goes much farther in the long run then the loss of a little tax money here or there. I sometimes think we in Lakewood forget the intangibles that are sometimes even more valuable.

good point. I forgot about city income taxes. And perhaps they will dine and shop locally when gasoline or its equivalent goes up to six dollars a gallon.

Joe:

I am your Kiwanian brother; I am not your straw-man.

If you are looking to torpedo the Cliffs project, toss your own grenades, brother.

Don’t put words in my mouth and launch them in a context I did not intend for their deployment.

You are wildly over-generalizing the data I cited in a narrative of “doom and gloomâ€Â￾ and “tankingâ€Â￾ economies. Then you point your manufactured narrative at the Cliffs in my name.

That's not the way Kiwanians create a more servicable citizenship, Joe.

I object that you have used my name to create an absurd-decision making demand for elected officials concerning an important project on the basis of a post I made that cites FOREIGNERS' U.S. FINANCIAL ASSETS/LIABILITIES and the dollar sell-off.

In you rush to stir the pot, you neglect to notice from the data cited that with $800 billion in cash, foreigners may indeed have the cash to acquire this waterfront real estate. That was not my point, however.

To be sure, I am broadly concerned about the economic effects of de-industrialization, outsourcing and cost advantages of Chinese and Indian labor.

Only a fool ignores these challenges.

You over-generalized the news on the employment front in the Wal-mart thread and baited Jim O’Bryan in the process. I took your bait and cited macroeconomic data to yield context for your take on good news on the employment front, something contested by some economists.

That was the context for the discussion – not the Cliffs project.

In thinking about the economic news being contested, I made the point that Jim does not make all this stuff up.

So allow me to cite here, Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, who notes:

“Most of the April job gain --72%--is in domestic services, with education and health services (primarily health care and social assistance) and waitresses and bartenders accounting for 55,000 jobs or 42% of the total job gain. Financial activities added 26,000 jobs and professional and business services added 28,000. Retail trade lost 36,000 jobs.
During 2001 and 2002 the US economy lost 2,298,000 jobs. These lost jobs were not regained until early in February 2005. From February 2005 through April 2006, the economy has gained 2,584 jobs (mainly in domestic services).

The total job gain for the 64 month period from January 2001 through April 2006 is 7,000,000 jobs less than the 9,600,000 jobs necessary to stay even with population growth during that period. The unemployment rate is low because millions of discouraged workers have dropped out of the work force and are not counted as unemployed.

In 2005 the US had a current account deficit in excess of $800 billion. That means Americans consumed $800 billion more goods and services than they produced. A significant percentage of this figure is offshore production by US companies for American markets.

The US current account deficit as a percent of Gross Domestic Product is unprecedented. As more jobs and manufacturing are moved offshore, Americans become more dependent on foreign made goods. This year the deficit could reach $1 trillion.â€Â￾

For more see:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts05082006.html

The impact of Iraq war on the national debt is real, as are the entitlement programs. Again these are all aspects on economic life in our times.

Senator Voinovich is speaking a message about the national debt and entitlement programs.

Again, Jim is not a voice in the wilderness about the challenges in this economy and generational responsibility. Thus speaks the Senator: "The retirement of the baby boom generation will put unprecedented strains on the federal government...According to the reports from Medicare and Social Security trustees, the trust funds for these programs will be exhausted even earlier than previously thought...If we leave reform of entitlement programs for future Congresses to solve, as well as a mountain of debt to pay off, it will have devastating consequences on the economy and on our children and grandchildren…..."Anyone in the know who is watching us has to wonder about our character, our intellectual honesty, our concern about our national security, our nation's competitiveness in the global marketplace now and in the future, and, last but not least, our don't-give-a-darn attitude about the standard of living and quality of life of our children and grandchildren. "The question is, are we willing to be honest with ourselves and the American people and make these tough decisions?"

Deal precisely with what I cite in the intended context.

Spare my name from your ridiculous chaos making over projects important to the city.

Kenneth Warren

Oh good heavens, Joe -

You are like a dog with a bone, aren't you??

I have only one comment before you get thrown to the 'read for amusement only' pile:

You tend to have valid concerns, and often can cite some specific sources for your material; however, when faced with criticism and debate, you turn very viscious and instead of honing in on more specific pieces of evidence to support your position, you widen the scope to broad, vague generalizations and then parse everyone else's posts mercilessly - taking thoughts and ideas out of context for the pure sake of making them look bad.

Even more frustrating to me is the fact that you are not the only one on the Deck that does this.

I think there are a lot of widely varied views and opinions on this board that are held by a number of articulate and intelligent people, but I find it more and more frustrating that instead of participating in thoughtful discussion, it goes right back to rhetoric and even worse, the occasional mud-slinging.

Talk, bring your facts, bring your ideas, bring your beliefs... bring thoughful discussion...

I want a reason to listen to you, __________ (insert rhetoric flinging poster of choice).

You simply don't give me one.

JMO

Peace,.
~Charyn

are libraries an entitlement program?

What are the best entitlement programs?

What are the best entitlement programs to work for?

What government expenditures are not entitlement programs?

Joseph Milan wrote:Perhaps someone (Preferably one of our council members or the Mayor) can explain how we can afford this great, new waterfront project, the first in 40 years, while Jim O. and Mr. Warren are insisting that the "economy is tanking".


Thanks you,

Joe

Joe, Joe, Joe

Get serious, get real. Read what I write before you go off with your "Mr. O and Ken Warren." I said the economy is tanking I also said the rich are getting richer.

These Condos are perfect for whoever can afford them. As a person that has had a couple kick ass condos on the lake, including the million dollar view. I would rather have one of these over them. My wife who said no more condos, had to admit these are pretty nice and maybe...

Two reasons come to mind. 1) They face west, so you will see the storms roll in. At the same time the afternoon sun always warms an apartment better than the morning sun. Just something I found out living at The Winton Place. 2) They are on an active, clean river. Days would go by with nothing really happening on the lake, maybe a boat here or there. Sunday morning I would sit back with a bloody mary and read the New York Times while watching the saliboat races. But that was 5 hours out of a very long week. This river and area is alive.

To make it even better, the Cliffs are but a short hike upstream to reach some pretty good fly fishing spots, the dog park, Around The Corner, the multi-purpose trail for bikes, and less than ten minutes through the park to Great Northern, the Airport and 7 minutes from 480. These make sense.

If you are frustrated with me or Ken then attack me or Ken. We thrive on criticism. But these are local developers that grew up in Lakewood, trying to do something nice for Lakewood. Have gone out of their way to do things correctly in a way to benefit the city. All of us. If you have a gripe, a real gripe, not vintage Joe Bordeaux, then throw it out.

See you Wednesday night, Always a pleasure.

PS - To answer your question. We can afford it because the developers are paying!!!! Think of that, developers that believe in their product enough to actually build it without abatement!


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Ryan:

Technically speaking, the entitlement programs referenced above are non-discretionary payments made to individuals on the basis of age, financial condition, and other conditions through the federal government. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and federal civilian pensions and military retirement are the major federal entitlement programs, and the most costly. Others might include forms of public assistance such as food stamps. Eligibility is set by law.

I do not believe public libraries qualify as federal entitlement programs. Sometimes public libraries may qualify for a federal grant. But such grants are programs that have come and gone with different administrations, with adjustments up and down and out in different budget cycles.

Kenneth Warren

JOB said

Think of that, developers that believe in their product enough to actually build it without abatement!

They expect assistance from a city approved TIF.

It would be nice for the city to give me a tax abatement, should I ever purchase a home. Since used houses don't require expanding city infrastructure, They are technically better to sell.

Grace O'Malley wrote:JOB said

Think of that, developers that believe in their product enough to actually build it without abatement!

They expect assistance from a city approved TIF.

Grace

I am digging into this as we read. We have someone going over the TIF, and also will sit down with other parties to get to the bottom. We have a couple people that were not that excited about other developmetns looking at this and the early reaction is that this was done properly.

I will admit I had some reservations when I first caught wind of this project. But from everything I can see and read, this is OK.

It takes an area that has very little value, and turns it into something i think we can all approve of, housing.

Perhaps you would like to join in the drill down? Nothing I like more than meeting with Observer over discussion. I will also see if I can get Rick Foran or another member of Foran Mantlock Development to come to an upcoming Observer party and discuss this and other items.


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